Justice League Design *Brainstorming*

[laughing matter]

I'm actually starting to really like this direction.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

Champion, Scientist, Vigilante is fine for those 3. It'll be tough to bring every character into the mix though with the given powers. Someone like Fate likely isn't going to be able to fit under any of those pre-set ones.

Here's what I'd personally do:

Martian Manhunter II:

JUSTICE LEAGUE SUPPORT
If you only have Unique Heroes in your Army, you may use each of the following:

• Once per round if a King, Archer, or Magician you control rolls the 20-sided die, you may add 2 to the roll.
• Once per round if an opponent successfully rolls to take control of any Champion, Warrior, or Officer you control, their turn immediately ends.
• Once per game when defending against a non-adjacent attack with a Vigilante, Scientist, or Archer you control, one shield will block all damage.

Batman III:

JUSTICE LEAGUE TACTICS
If you only have Unique Heroes in your Army, you may use each of the following:

• Once per round when an Officer, Mystic, or Protector you control destroys an enemy figure, you may take one additional turn.
• Once per game when attacking an adjacent figure with a Champion, Warrior, or Officer you control, all blanks rolled count as skulls.

Cyborg II:

JUSTICE LEAGUE STRATEGY
If you only have Unique Heroes in your Army, you may use each of the following:

• Once per round after an opponent reveals an Order Marker, you may immediately move each Vigilante, Archer, and King you control up to 4 spaces. Moved figures will not take any leaving engagements.
• Once per game you may add 2 to your initiative roll for each enemy figure adjacent to a Champion, Warrior, or Scientist you control.

It's uniform with "Once per round" powers being listed before "Once per game". I tried keeping the amount of classes being uniform for each power on that person's card.

I'm liking this a lot better. I definitely dig the "three classes per power effect" approach. A couple of thoughts:

1. I wonder if we shouldn't go full consistency and have each power hit an always in play power that affects three classes, a once per round power that affects three classes, and a once per game power that affects three classes (I'd argue the power that stops three classes from being mind controlled could just always be in effect, for instance).

2. I think you could probably chop the "you may use each of the following:" text and just stick the colon right after "Army." It'll be obvious you can do each of the following, because that's what the rest of the power tells you that you can do.

3. Let's really consider what Classes we can tie in that would bring as many key Leaguers in as we can (some of the effects can throw a bone at more obscure members for that third Class in the effect, like you did with the Mystics in the Warrior/Protector destroy figure and get an extra turn power). But I would argue that two of the three Classes for each power would ideally affect a lot of figures. I'll have a Class breakdown to help us here soon.

4. Let's really consider how each power effect helps the specifically thematic figures in said Class (I know we're both kind of doing this already, but I want to make sure for every effect that we're really asking: does this make X JLer more effective in an army and/or benefit X JLer more than other figures that share his Class?). I think if we can hit that for each effect, it'll really sell this direction both thematically and for gameplay.

Looking at the Spreadsheet of C3G Units, here's what I came up with (I might be missing some - let me know if so!):

Vigilante (7), Champion (6), Officer (4), Warrior (4), Scientist (3), Archer (3), Adventurer (2), Telepath (2), Interloper (2), King (1), Protector (1), Magician (1), Mystic (1), Crime Fighter (1),
Savant (1), Refugee (1), Guardian (1), Princess (1), Celebrity (1), Engineer (1), Strategist (1), Recluse (1)

Fuller Breakdowns:

Spoiler Alert!

Vigilante: Batman (Bruce, I and II, Dick, Jean, Terry), Black Canary, Huntress
Champion: Booster Gold, Captain Marvel (Billy), Flash (Wally), Superman (I and II), Wonder Woman
Officer: Green Lanters (Guy, Hal, John, Kyle)
Warrior: Aquaman (II), Hawkgirl, Hawkman, Vixen
Scientist: Atom (Ray), Flash (Barry), Firestorm
Archer: Green Arrow (Connor, Ollie), Red Arrow
Adventurer: Animal Man, Plastic Man
Telepath: Gypsy, Martian Manhunter
Interloper: Creeper, Jade
King: Aquaman (I)
Protector: Red Tornado
Magician: Zatanna
Mystic: Doctor Fate
Crime Fighter: Blue Beetle (Ted)
Savant: Mister Terrific
Refugee: Supergirl
Guardian: Zauriel
Princess: Ice
Celebrity: Fire
Engineer: Steel
Strategist: Oracle
Recluse: Obsidian

For me, Adventurers, Telepaths, Crime Fighters, and Savants are the ones I'd really like to see get some love still, if possible. With the first three, we'll really have to be careful how we do it to target the benefits to our thematic Leaguers, and not, say, Fantastic Four members, X-Men, Spider-Man, etc. Getting Classes like Guardian, Princess, or Celebrity in would be really nice, but probably tough. Zauriel, Ice, and Fire don't really have anywhere else to belong, though, so this is kind of their shot!

Vigilante, Champion, Warrior, Officer, Scientist, and Archer definitely deserve the most love here, though. I'd consider those the "big" Classes that deserve mention on every card. That leaves 9 other spots (3 per card), which could mean 9 one-shots, or some double mentions/triple mentions, as well as some single mentions.

Edit: Updated with Firestorm

[Arkham]

Good analysis. I don't think we need Telepath. We can make the new Martian Manhunter a champion, and the only other Justice League member with Telepath is Gypsy(certainly not a notable addition). That's one instance where I think the single inclusion isn't worth the many powerful telepathy that come with it.

I think a 1 always usable, 1 once per round, and 1 once per game format could be really cool.

I agree on the throw a bone to a single Justice League member with a class that they have to themselves or very little other people. I also have been trying to make the classes benefitting both thematic, but also making sure not to give bonus to a class where a particular non thematic member would over shine the thematic ones. For instance, Champions not getting the d20 boost any more will help bring Thor down a bit on par with the rest.

[IAmBatman]

Absolutely. Unfortunately I'll have to go after this post to bed due to work tomorrow, but I'm eager to refine that format on three (maybe four with Doctor Fate?) cards and see what Classes we can get in there! I agree with chopping Telepath, though.

It'd be nice to use the extra 9 spots to get love for at least: Mystic, Magician, Protector, and King.

If we can pull off Adventurer and/or Crime Fighter, that'd be nice, but it's not a deal-breaker for me if we decide they have the same issue as Telepath.

Interloper brings in Creeper and Jade, and I don't mind losing either of them. They'll both eventually have Outsider love and Jade helps GLs already. I'd probably cut them from consideration.

Steel, Oracle, and Obsidian don't really matter as inclusions to me, so I'd just as soon cut them Engineer, Strategist, and Recluse from consideration.

Savant, Refugee, Guardian, Princess, and Celebrity all make decent throw-ins, though, without too much collateral. Of those, Celebrity brings in Wonder Man (who I feel like we could work the boosts around) and Guardian brings in Heimdall, Hulkbuster Iron Man, and Thorbuster Iron Man (which could be a problematic group, so it's probably better to cut poor Zauriel from the mix).

So, I'd probably go with the big six (Vigilante, Champion, Warrior, Officer, Scientist, Adventurer) once on each card, then once each Mystic, Magician, Protector, King, Adventurer (if workable), Celebrity (if workable), and then the remainders double up on some of the above or toss a crumb to any of: Savant, Refugee, Princess, and Celebrity.

I will say that IF we do Princess, I hope we do Celebrity, and vice versa on the same card. I'd prefer to see Fire and Ice encouraged to come as a package deal.

[Arkham]

JUSTICE LEAGUE SUPPORT
If you only have Unique Heroes in your Army:

• If a King, Archer, or Scientist you control rolls the 20-sided die, you may add 2 to the roll.
• Once per round if an opponent successfully rolls to take control of any Champion, Warrior, or Magician you control, their turn immediately ends.
• Once per game when defending against a non-adjacent attack with a Vigilante, Officer, or Scientist you control, one shield will block all damage.

Logic:
-Aquaman I, Green Arrow, Firestorm, and Cyborg could use the d20 boost, but none result in something incredibly good(I was a little worried about Zatanna's Mind Wipe)
-You don't want the likes of Superman, Hawkman, or Zatanna used against you.
-Batman, Green Lanterns, and Scientists with poor luck, can be dropped easily.

JUSTICE LEAGUE TACTICS
If you only have Unique Heroes in your Army:

• Instead of taking a turn with Batman, you may take a turn with a Vigilante, Archer, or Magician you control.
• Once per round when a Scientist, Mystic, or Protector you control destroys an enemy figure, you may take one additional turn.
• Once per game when attacking an adjacent figure with a Champion, Warrior, or Officer you control, all blanks rolled count as skulls.

Logic:
-Batman affiliates with other Vigilante's, Green Arrow, and Zatanna often.
-Flash, Doctor Fate, and Red Tornado could really benefit from another turn, but aren't too powerful to the point it becomes crazy.
-Superman, Hawkman/Hawkgirl, and Green Lanterns hit the hardest, and would be capable of such decent power.

JUSTICE LEAGUE STRATEGY
If you only have Unique Heroes in your Army:

• Each Scientist, Refugee, and Protector you control may add 1 to its move.
• Once per round after an opponent reveals an Order Marker, you may immediately move a Vigilante, Archer, or King you control up to 4 spaces.
• Once per game you may add 2 to your initiative roll for each enemy figure adjacent to a Champion, Warrior, or Officer you control.

Logic:
-Flash, Supergirl, and Red Tornado could push themselves to go faster/further.
-Batman, Green Arrow, and Aquaman I's placements and positioning are key to their survival and effectiveness.
-Wonder Woman, Hawkman/Hawkgirl, and Green Lanterns are usually going to be on the front lines, and it nicely synergizes with Batman's blanks offering in critical moment of battle.

[Yodaking]

I think you guys would be better served focusing in on one block at a time, it is a lot of absorb all at once. I'm going to try and break each one down though, one at a time.

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

JUSTICE LEAGUE SUPPORT
If you only have Unique Heroes in your Army:

• If a King, Archer, or Scientist you control rolls the 20-sided die, you may add 2 to the roll.
• Once per round if an opponent successfully rolls to take control of any Champion, Warrior, or Magician you control, their turn immediately ends.
• Once per game when defending against a non-adjacent attack with a Vigilante, Officer, or Scientist you control, one shield will block all damage.

Logic:
-Aquaman I, Green Arrow, Firestorm, and Cyborg could use the d20 boost, but none result in something incredibly good(I was a little worried about Zatanna's Mind Wipe)
-You don't want the likes of Superman, Hawkman, or Zatanna used against you.
-Batman, Green Lanterns, and Scientists with poor luck, can be dropped easily.

-I'd rather see Magician than Scientist on the d20 roll. I've struggle to get Zatanna to do anything for me in game so I was looking forward to a d20 boost for her. Flash & Atom are scientist with no d20 roll and if you make Cyborg 2.0 a scientist with a d20 roll it will need to be high to account for this power. Then it will be a high roll every time you don't use MM in your JL army, which could be often for anyone trying to recreate a line-up from the comics or cartoons as MM & Cyborg never served together.
-I would not at all be concerned about losing Zatanna, but losing Firestorm and his ability to inflict autowounds would be scary considering Superman might be on my team. So switch Magician for Scientist here.
-Flash is a Scientist that already has a similar ability, finally getting past his normal ability just to be thwarted by this seems like it would be annoying for your opponent. Maybe replace it with Archer as Green Arrow seems like a likely target for a non-adj. attack and he doesn't have much room for error. Plus Vigilante is referenced here so having Archer also included helps pair up Black Canary & Green Arrow.

[Arkham]

Sounds like you prefer how I initially had it. Zatanna with the d20 roll, and Archer for the one shield blocks all damage. Fair enough.

JUSTICE LEAGUE SUPPORT
If you only have Unique Heroes in your Army:

• If a King, Archer, or Magician you control rolls the 20-sided die, you may add 2 to the roll.
• Once per round if an opponent successfully rolls to take control of any Champion, Warrior, or Scientist you control, their turn immediately ends.
• Once per game when defending against a non-adjacent attack with a Vigilante, Officer, or Archer you control, one shield will block all damage.

I wasn't so worried about Firestorm being taken control of. You have to roll to even use his Firestorm Matrix, and if you can use it, you can't move, and on average you're looking at 1-2 shields. But I suppose I'm not so worried about Zatanna either, she could always take off a negation marker if your opponent successfully negates your teammate, though if it's permanent, it could get bad. If people feel she'll be too good with a +2 for both her d20 powers, Scientist(Firestorm & Cyborg) could be a backup option, as well as Officer(Hal).

[Yodaking]

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

JUSTICE LEAGUE SUPPORT
JUSTICE LEAGUE TACTICS
If you only have Unique Heroes in your Army:

• Instead of taking a turn with Batman, you may take a turn with a Vigilante, Archer, or Magician you control.
• Once per round when a Scientist, Mystic, or Protector you control destroys an enemy figure, you may take one additional turn.
• Once per game when attacking an adjacent figure with a Champion, Warrior, or Officer you control, all blanks rolled count as skulls.

Logic:
-Batman affiliates with other Vigilante's, Green Arrow, and Zatanna often.
-Flash, Doctor Fate, and Red Tornado could really benefit from another turn, but aren't too powerful to the point it becomes crazy.
-Superman, Hawkman/Hawkgirl, and Green Lanterns hit the hardest, and would be capable of such decent power.

-OM flex is too valuable here to use on a single class reference like Zatanna & Green Arrow. I don't like the Vigilante pairing either as it just encourages you to field him in a Vigilante army build and I want any Batman 3.0 to get away from the Vigilante faction. He already has two versions that can play well in that world. I'd go with Champion for sure as he is part of the Trinity and Superman & WW are both Champions. They should have OM flex if anyone does. Then I'd go with some other classes with wider range. Warrior for a surprise Hawk Swoop and Scientist for Flash to zip in or Atom so when he gets knocked off he can jump right back on.
-With now Scientist in the first option, I'd replace that one with Officer. Dr. Fate seems like an odd choice here, I'd go with Archer if you want to keep the threat of the extra attack down. Green Arrow still has the range to make good use of the extra attack, especially with MM giving him a +2 to his roll. Protector is fine.
-I'm not too sure about this power at all. Do you have to declare you are using it before you roll or can you wait until you see some blanks? With it being a once per game power, I think this is where I would sneak in a few of the less prominent classes. I don't know why but I feel like Supergirl should get pulled in here with a Refugee shout out. She still has a big attack roll so she could end up with a bunch of blanks. Fate can get some love too so lets put Mystic here. Then maybe one of the 'big 7' classes, how about Warrior for Aquaman & the Hawks.

[Arkham]

Solid suggestions.

JUSTICE LEAGUE TACTICS
If you only have Unique Heroes in your Army:

• Instead of taking a turn with Batman, you may take a turn with a Champion, Warrior, or Scientist you control.
• Once per round when a Archer, Officer, or Protector you control destroys an enemy figure, you may take one additional turn.
• Once per game when attacking an adjacent figure with a Mystic, Refugee, or Warrior you control, all blanks rolled count as skulls.

[Yodaking]

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

JUSTICE LEAGUE STRATEGY
If you only have Unique Heroes in your Army:

• Each Scientist, Refugee, and Protector you control may add 1 to its move.
• Once per round after an opponent reveals an Order Marker, you may immediately move a Vigilante, Archer, or King you control up to 4 spaces.
• Once per game you may add 2 to your initiative roll for each enemy figure adjacent to a Champion, Warrior, or Officer you control.

Logic:
-Flash, Supergirl, and Red Tornado could push themselves to go faster/further.
-Batman, Green Arrow, and Aquaman I's placements and positioning are key to their survival and effectiveness.
-Wonder Woman, Hawkman/Hawkgirl, and Green Lanterns are usually going to be on the front lines, and it nicely synergizes with Batman's blanks offering in critical moment of battle.

I'm not really feeling the first two powers very much. Most of the JL is already really fast plus Cyborg might be bringing a boom tube to the table. Making fast units faster just doesn't excite me at all. The move after a opponent OM reveal just seems like a retreat to me. Your opponent reveals who he is activating and then you try to move out of that figures threat range before he can act. I think your opponent would find this annoying and it doesn't seem very JL like to me.

The initiative power is pretty good though and the 3 classes are great choices as they are all mainstays in the league as well as likely to be engaged. I'm not sure what to pair it up with but I liked Bats suggestion that Princess & Celebrity be the classes for one power. I don't really know their cards so lets maybe take a look at what they can do and see if their a good power that could benefit them. I'd also like to get Zauriel in on this action so lets see if we can come up with something that he would like.

[Arkham]

I disagree on the 2nd power. I find it to be quite thematic, and since it is only 1 of those figures once per round, only 4 spaces, I don't see that as an annoyance.

[Yodaking]

If you really want a movement power, maybe have a disengage move before revealing an OM and have Warriors and Guardians benefit. Then Hawkman can pull back for a quick swoop and Zauriel can go for a surprise attack. Who else might want to disengage to get out of trouble? Green Lantern?

- Once per round, before you reveal a numbered Order Marker, you may immediately move a Warrior, Officer, or Guardian you control up to 3 spaces. Any figure moved will not take any Leaving Engagement Attacks.