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  #3145  
Old January 26th, 2019, 06:01 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
I will echo @Pumpking_King 's frustration here: there is a long history of resistance to "sameness" and now we're being told "different for the sake of different" is a negative. Pick a lane.
My lane is simple and obvious. I don't want all the factions to look and act the same. Painting a rose a different color doesn't make it not a rose, and certainly not a flower. A ham-fisted approach to forcing order marker spread does not make a cowboy leader significantly less same-y. It's still a leader figure that allows for multiple units to do movement and attacks.

If it's going to be a leader that allows multiple units to move and attack, then that's what it is, and tricks isn't going to change that.

Like any unit, I will question any powers are unnecessarily complicated or push boundaries without need. What I see with Shootout is a normal leader-type power with an order marker spread mechanic forced onto it. In this case, for all the extra wording it takes, I also really question the value of the order marker spread part. With the powers requiring the units to stay together, and Posse being the only way to efficiently do that, about the only reason to put order markers elsewhere (unless you expect Clayton to die) is to be able to attack first with a different Lawman. But Clayton rolls a solid 3 dice, so it's pretty likely a shot with Clayton will allow another turn anyway. So I'd rather keep order markers on Clayton as long as possible to maintain the flexibility of using Posse to reposition as the game state changes.
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  #3146  
Old January 26th, 2019, 08:07 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

As long as Lawmen have different types if attacks (Shotguns) and different numbers of attack dice (Guilty's Double Attack), that's reason enough to want to start a Shootout with someone other than Clayton. Seems like a feature not a bug.

Let's look at the difference in wording between anyone-starts and Clayton-only:


When revealing an Order Marker on the Army Card of a Unique Lawman Hero you control, instead of taking a turn normally you may use Shootout. Take a turn with one or more Unique Lawman Heroes you control in which they can only attack, beginning with the Lawman whose Order Marker you revealed. If any Lawman fails to roll at least one skull with a normal or special attack on their turn, the Shootout ends. Only Clayton and Lawmen within 4 clear sight spaces of Clayton may take a turn with Shootout.

When revealing an Order Marker on this card, instead of taking a turn normally you may use Shootout. Take a turn with one or more Unique Lawman Heroes you control in which they can only attack, beginning with Clayton. If any Lawman fails to roll at least one skull with a normal or special attack on their turn, the Shootout ends. Only Clayton and Lawmen within 4 clear sight spaces of Clayton may take a turn with Shootout.


That's it. Almost no change other than more options. I guess let me put it this way: why should a leader hog all the Order Markers to himself? Where is it written that a leader must lead via Order Markers? There are plenty of powers in fact named "Leadership" that do not require Order Markers on the leader. As I said before, someone like Kantono is just a copy & paste "take two turns" "leader" (ironically with a Leadership power that's completely unlike all the others as @Just_a_Bill pointed out), while Clayton actually brings cowboy-themed synergy.


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  #3147  
Old January 26th, 2019, 08:13 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

We're presenting an easy-to-understand and mechanically/thematically-justified alternative to (as NB mentioned) Kantono-style "leadership" synergy, which is something I think we'd all agree is high on the list of priorities for cowboy synergy.
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  #3148  
Old January 26th, 2019, 10:07 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Yes, I get the advantage of putting an order marker on a different Lawman. I just don't think it has much value. Order markers on Clayton have more value in general due to Posse. The value of putting an order marker on, say Johnny, is to ensure Shotgun happens, but Clayton's three attack (easily four with height) makes it likely you'll be able to activate a second attacker anyway. Besides, whether I'm rolling three dice for Clayton first or three for Johnny first, if I roll all skulls it's a dead turn anyway. I'd prefer to keep the order markers on Clayton to keep the Posse option available.
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  #3149  
Old January 26th, 2019, 11:02 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I don't think that a leader should necessitate hogging OMs. There are many more inventive ways to tie an army together, and I hate the idea of every faction leader being an Ulginesh/Kato/Kantono/Lao Xin. We've seen enough of those OM sinks, and I'd like to see a new type of leader that encourages players to spread them out for a change. It fits the Western theme pretty well, too, in my eyes, especially since we have so many disparate unique Lawmen already.

That said, I do think that Scytale has a point. You're probably going to put at least one OM per round on Clayton for the Posse movement, and unless you're concerned that he might die, there's not really much of a reason to put OMs on any of his companions as it stands (other than Guilty to get a better chance at triggering the Shootout, of course). Since none of them can do anything but attack during the Shootout, the mechanical difference between taking the first shot with Clayton or James/Johnny is practically nonexistent (since each will likely roll 3 dice), which is why it would make sense to cut the fat and simplify the card a little bit.

That said, I still don't like the idea of Clayton being another OM hog. Perhaps some other combo of triggers (such as keeping Posse as a once-per-round power for him, but making Shootout only trigger from other Unique Lawmen or the like) could result in a simpler card that still feels unique and encourages spreading out OMs.

As for Posse, if I'm understanding everything correctly, I believe that one of the main complaints against it is that it is movement bonding, but the wording is significantly more complex. I think that it'd be simpler to just ape the official wording and add a "once per round" stipulation. My apologies if I misunderstood this, but I think that it's worth bringing up anyway, especially if a "Before taking a turn" power can't be used in tandem with an "Instead of taking a turn" power, since that was the original reason for the different wording.
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  #3150  
Old January 27th, 2019, 06:17 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I feel like Posse and Shootout should be on two different designs. It seems like having them on the same figure causes too much conflict, and it forces the design to become a variation of Kato/Omagacron/Ulglinesh. Especially if you want to encourage the spread of order markers, you can't do that when you are putting all of the tools you could reasonably want, all onto a single design. Posse should should be the core of a design based around just moving your lawmen around, and having high mobility without wasting order markers, but at the sacrifice of not getting attacks. Shootout would then be the core of the opposite type of design, one which sacrifices most, if not all, mobility, but allows for high potential number of attacks. I do agree with others though, that an upper limit on Shootout is absolutely necessary. It does not need to be too restrictive though, you can put it plenty high, at say 4 lawmen. 4 attacks of anything better than a 1, is very valuable.
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  #3151  
Old January 27th, 2019, 10:00 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Yes, I get the advantage of putting an order marker on a different Lawman. I just don't think it has much value.
But there is a difference, and that difference gives both players decisions to make, which I think is a much bigger value than you're giving credit for.

Quote:
Order markers on Clayton have more value in general due to Posse. The value of putting an order marker on, say Johnny, is to ensure Shotgun happens, but Clayton's three attack (easily four with height) makes it likely you'll be able to activate a second attacker anyway. Besides, whether I'm rolling three dice for Clayton first or three for Johnny first, if I roll all skulls it's a dead turn anyway. I'd prefer to keep the order markers on Clayton to keep the Posse option available.
One. ONEOrder Marker on Clayton has value due to Posse. It's a once per round power and I don't know how to stress that any more. You may also want a Shotgun to go first during a Shootout to see if you can clear multiple figures, thus freeing up someone else's single shot at a less-important enemy, or double-tap something that survives.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
I don't think that a leader should necessitate hogging OMs. There are many more inventive ways to tie an army together, and I hate the idea of every faction leader being an Ulginesh/Kato/Kantono/Lao Xin. We've seen enough of those OM sinks, and I'd like to see a new type of leader that encourages players to spread them out for a change. It fits the Western theme pretty well, too, in my eyes, especially since we have so many disparate unique Lawmen already.

That said, I do think that Scytale has a point. You're probably going to put at least one OM per round on Clayton for the Posse movement, and unless you're concerned that he might die, there's not really much of a reason to put OMs on any of his companions as it stands (other than Guilty to get a better chance at triggering the Shootout, of course). Since none of them can do anything but attack during the Shootout, the mechanical difference between taking the first shot with Clayton or James/Johnny is practically nonexistent (since each will likely roll 3 dice), which is why it would make sense to cut the fat and simplify the card a little bit.

That said, I still don't like the idea of Clayton being another OM hog. Perhaps some other combo of triggers (such as keeping Posse as a once-per-round power for him, but making Shootout only trigger from other Unique Lawmen or the like) could result in a simpler card that still feels unique and encourages spreading out OMs.
Mostly see above. Triggering Shootout off anyone but Clayton is a move away from theme, not toward it, and it would actually require more complicated wording, not less. See a few posts ago.

Quote:
As for Posse, if I'm understanding everything correctly, I believe that one of the main complaints against it is that it is movement bonding, but the wording is significantly more complex. I think that it'd be simpler to just ape the official wording and add a "once per round" stipulation. My apologies if I misunderstood this, but I think that it's worth bringing up anyway, especially if a "Before taking a turn" power can't be used in tandem with an "Instead of taking a turn" power, since that was the original reason for the different wording.
Likewise, also pointed out a few posts ago, there is a single word difference between moving them "before" and "after", yet one of them makes more thematic sense for a leader. Scy has also already waved away the necessity of trying to word our way around "before" and "instead" powers being on the same card, noting that they in fact can't work together so it's ok (yet inexplicably later expressed concern that another Lawman with a "before" power would somehow conflict with Clayton's "instead" ).



Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
1) I feel like Posse and Shootout should be on two different designs.

2) It seems like having them on the same figure causes too much conflict, and it forces the design to become a variation of Kato/Omagacron/Ulglinesh.

3) Especially if you want to encourage the spread of order markers, you can't do that when you are putting all of the tools you could reasonably want, all onto a single design.

4) I do agree with others though, that an upper limit on Shootout is absolutely necessary. It does not need to be too restrictive though, you can put it plenty high, at say 4 lawmen. 4 attacks of anything better than a 1, is very valuable.
1) Absolutely not. They both function thematically on the same leader, needing two leaders would dilute the theme (especially because, apparently, they'd then both need to have all your OM's somehow...)

2) Any leader is going to be some kind of variation on other leaders, that is an inescapable fact. Yet here we are presenting a unique take on that trope, which concerns people as being simultaneously too similar and not similar enough... These two powers also do not conflict with each other in any way.

3) We can do it, and we have.

4) Again, shrinking the auras curbs the potential, and the skull requirement already (as noted previously) gives a 12.5% chance of failure on any given shot. On average, with the current 4 Lawmen (counting Clayton), one of them will miss every other Shootout. That could be the last shot, but it could be the first (which I've had happen twice in the same game, ironically from Clayton himself).

===============

To be quite blunt, I don't think anyone knows exactly what they want. All I can tell you is what we have here (give or take tweaks to auras and attacking during Posse) works as intended and does so in a fresh, thematic way. I plan on doing more testing around those changes, but expect to find Clayton continues to make the Lawmen a new, fun faction to play.


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  #3152  
Old January 27th, 2019, 10:34 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

We have, so far, 5-6 games between us. Me and NB. This isn’t theoryscaping: we know he works, thematically and mechanically, and he works damn well. I’d encourage doubters to try him for yourself (I can get an updated card put up in my thread) and I’m sure that NB and I can keep more detailed notes on future tests.
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  #3153  
Old January 27th, 2019, 10:39 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
To be quite blunt, I don't think anyone knows exactly what they want. All I can tell you is what we have here (give or take tweaks to auras and attacking during Posse) works as intended and does so in a fresh, thematic way. I plan on doing more testing around those changes, but expect to find Clayton continues to make the Lawmen a new, fun faction to play.[/FONT][/SIZE]
I agree. I’ll be honest, I don’t know where or how this design should go or be...BUT I do know I like what I see, I believe you’re on the right track and that’s fine with me. I think you’ve got a strong vision with your design, so while I may have some reservations or agree with some points on the “opposing” side, there’s more good here than bad and I fully support and am exited to see this design continue to get developed by you guys.

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  #3154  
Old January 27th, 2019, 11:57 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
One. ONEOrder Marker on Clayton has value due to Posse. It's a once per round power and I don't know how to stress that any more. You may also want a Shotgun to go first during a Shootout to see if you can clear multiple figures, thus freeing up someone else's single shot at a less-important enemy, or double-tap something that survives.
Being once per round does not convince me. That makes sense in the initial round when moving them into position, but in later rounds I want to be able to move the posse to a new position as the game state changes. Unless I explicitly plan to do that in the first round, I'll just keep my order markers on Clayton.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Likewise, also pointed out a few posts ago, there is a single word difference between moving them "before" and "after", yet one of them makes more thematic sense for a leader. Scy has also already waved away the necessity of trying to word our way around "before" and "instead" powers being on the same card, noting that they in fact can't work together so it's ok (yet inexplicably later expressed concern that another Lawman with a "before" power would somehow conflict with Clayton's "instead" ).
Wait, what? No, I didn't wave anything away, rather the opposite. I think that "before" and "instead of" power probably do work together, so I agree with the current wording. It's a nice way to avoid that problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
To be quite blunt, I don't think anyone knows exactly what they want. All I can tell you is what we have here (give or take tweaks to auras and attacking during Posse) works as intended and does so in a fresh, thematic way. I plan on doing more testing around those changes, but expect to find Clayton continues to make the Lawmen a new, fun faction to play.
I will agree with "thematic," and potentially "fun." I do not agree with "fresh." It's another leader power that offers additional turns with other units. The order marker spread as implemented here is a wrinkle, not a real difference. Though a potentially interesting wrinkle, one that has the potential to force interesting decisions, but with the current version I see only minimal value, not enough to justify the boundary-pushing and potential rules headaches.

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  #3155  
Old January 27th, 2019, 12:44 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
One. ONEOrder Marker on Clayton has value due to Posse. It's a once per round power and I don't know how to stress that any more. You may also want a Shotgun to go first during a Shootout to see if you can clear multiple figures, thus freeing up someone else's single shot at a less-important enemy, or double-tap something that survives.
Being once per round does not convince me. That makes sense in the initial round when moving them into position, but in later rounds I want to be able to move the posse to a new position as the game state changes. Unless I explicitly plan to do that in the first round, I'll just keep my order markers on Clayton.
And you're free to do that with the current version. There's nothing stopping it from being played with Clayton as an OM dump. But the ability to be flexible during Shootouts and the necessity of properly timing your Posse moves are both positives.


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Likewise, also pointed out a few posts ago, there is a single word difference between moving them "before" and "after", yet one of them makes more thematic sense for a leader. Scy has also already waved away the necessity of trying to word our way around "before" and "instead" powers being on the same card, noting that they in fact can't work together so it's ok (yet inexplicably later expressed concern that another Lawman with a "before" power would somehow conflict with Clayton's "instead" ).
Wait, what? No, I didn't wave anything away, rather the opposite. I think that "before" and "instead of" power probably do work together, so I agree with the current wording. It's a nice way to avoid that problem.
Clearly I need you to explain these seemingly contradictory statements to me, then:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Ah, I see. A "before taking a turn" power would not conflict with an "instead of taking a turn" power.

-snip-

Making a power that changes how other cards work is messy at best, and potentially problematic, especially if we start giving Lawmen "before taking a turn" powers.
In the same post you stated that "before" and "instead" don't conflict so we're currently fine as-is, but then you say future "before" powers on other Lawmen would be problematic. Which is it?

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
To be quite blunt, I don't think anyone knows exactly what they want. All I can tell you is what we have here (give or take tweaks to auras and attacking during Posse) works as intended and does so in a fresh, thematic way. I plan on doing more testing around those changes, but expect to find Clayton continues to make the Lawmen a new, fun faction to play.
I will agree with "thematic," and potentially "fun." I do not agree with "fresh." It's another leader power that offers additional turns with other units. The order marker spread as implemented here is a wrinkle, not a real difference. Though a potentially interesting wrinkle, one that has the potential to force interesting decisions, but with the current version I see only minimal value, not enough to justify the boundary-pushing and potential rules headaches.

Again, "fresh" is a matter of degree. Leaders are going to create some kind of synergy within their faction, and it is often going to be similar to that which already exists in others. This is similar but different, which may be fresh to us but not to some. So far there's barely any boundary-pushing (which new designs need to do from time-to-time; there are over 300 existing cards) and haven't been any rules headaches. Pair that with the thematic nature of this addition and it should be a win for Heroscape.


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  #3156  
Old January 27th, 2019, 01:44 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

As someone who has also been providing some input on this design in the discord, what I like about this powerset is the clearly thematic nature of it. Even if it isn’t strongly mechanically distinct from other leadership powersets, it feels very appropriate for the relevant faction in a way that not all leaders tend to be. For me, then, the specifics of the mechanics aren’t important as long as the powers still feel like a posse rolling up and unloading their guns like a scene in a western that goes on way too long. Shooting up a saloon for like two and a half minutes or whatever. Point being, this buys the powerset a lot more good grace from me than it would get from a point of purely mechanical difference.

That said, while I don’t think that not letting other lawmen trigger the shootout contradicts that theme, I don’t really agree with the objections. The argument that it doesn’t really encourage OM diversity because really you should put OMs on Clayton anyway for flexibility is a difficult one to make, as it suggests there is one correct way to play this new unit that only a few people have tested so far. Personally, I would generally go with one, maybe two OMs on Clayton a round to activate posse, and there might be rounds where I don’t want to activate posse at all because it prevents me from having a shootout that turn. Is it a rules headache? Maybe, I’m not an expert on the rules. I would need a concrete example of the problems it causes in order to be convinced on that point. As is, my understanding of this concern is vague.

I do think the potentially uncapped nature of both powers is an interesting discussion, though. Even if we shrink posse to a 2 space aura, what happens in the not unlikely situation that C3V releases a lawman hero booster pack? Should Clayton be able to move 7-8 Lawman unique heroes in a single Posse? Even if the answer is yes, that possibility makes it tricky to accurately cost him at this point—and since its his power, the point cost of its potential should fall on him, not future designs.
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