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  #37  
Old December 3rd, 2012, 08:54 PM
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Re: The Book of Quahon

Try doing the iron golem against quahon. 3 life with 6 defense with two automatic shields against specials and six attack is nothing to sneeze at. It's also uncommon at 100 points to boot. Try more than one army before you scream undervalued at the dragon.
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  #38  
Old December 3rd, 2012, 09:10 PM
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Re: The Book of Quahon

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Originally Posted by SlipperySlope View Post
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Originally Posted by dok View Post
However, Quahon has worse survivability than all three of them, is slower than all of them except Q9, and is harder to place than even Nilfheim. She's not broken.
I played two Q9 armies Saturday, beat them handily. Due to the Q gun's 6 range, the Axegrinders got in with withstanding one round of 3-3-3. (Played Mok, killed him no problem. Didn't face Nilfheim, but wouldn't have been afraid of him, either.)

Playing against Quahon, the Axes had to withstand two rounds of 4-4-4. And that was the difference between a W and L. Axegrinders are the premier anti-Large figures in the game, and they help to keep figures like Q9 and Nilfheim in check. Quahon toasted them too easily for my liking.

Ranged multiple specials are the most potent attacks in the game. Take excellent units like Kaemon Awa, Q10, Q9, Nilfheim ... all A/A- figures ... none of them come close to having the sort of reach that Quahon's special gives him.

I can understand that you all put in hard work on this figure and don't like to hear it criticized, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree that 190 is undervaluing this figure.
What we don't like is you passing judgment based on one or two games. Give her a couple plays yourself, and play against her a few more times. You can limit her range if you position your figures right.

Your custom probably has too much Defense.
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  #39  
Old December 3rd, 2012, 09:13 PM
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Re: The Book of Quahon

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Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlipperySlope View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
However, Quahon has worse survivability than all three of them, is slower than all of them except Q9, and is harder to place than even Nilfheim. She's not broken.
I played two Q9 armies Saturday, beat them handily. Due to the Q gun's 6 range, the Axegrinders got in with withstanding one round of 3-3-3. (Played Mok, killed him no problem. Didn't face Nilfheim, but wouldn't have been afraid of him, either.)

Playing against Quahon, the Axes had to withstand two rounds of 4-4-4. And that was the difference between a W and L. Axegrinders are the premier anti-Large figures in the game, and they help to keep figures like Q9 and Nilfheim in check. Quahon toasted them too easily for my liking.

Ranged multiple specials are the most potent attacks in the game. Take excellent units like Kaemon Awa, Q10, Q9, Nilfheim ... all A/A- figures ... none of them come close to having the sort of reach that Quahon's special gives him.

I can understand that you all put in hard work on this figure and don't like to hear it criticized, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree that 190 is undervaluing this figure.
What we don't like is you passing judgment based on one or two games. Give her a couple plays yourself, and play against her a few more times. You can limit her range if you position your figures right.
What cap said.

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  #40  
Old December 3rd, 2012, 09:31 PM
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Re: The Book of Quahon

I've probably played 10 games with Quahon, and seen more. Most of the time, if you position your figures well, it really isn't that hard to take her out before she does much more than her 190 points of damage. She's potent, but not much moreso than the other big dragons.

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  #41  
Old December 3rd, 2012, 09:37 PM
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Re: The Book of Quahon

Positioning is essential to avoiding her LBSA. Ask NecroBlade what happened on our game. I had dwarves too you know. I did some good positioning early on to negate a few multi-hits, until I was ready to close the gap.
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  #42  
Old December 3rd, 2012, 10:06 PM
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Re: The Book of Quahon

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlipperySlope View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
However, Quahon has worse survivability than all three of them, is slower than all of them except Q9, and is harder to place than even Nilfheim. She's not broken.
I played two Q9 armies Saturday, beat them handily. Due to the Q gun's 6 range, the Axegrinders got in with withstanding one round of 3-3-3. (Played Mok, killed him no problem. Didn't face Nilfheim, but wouldn't have been afraid of him, either.)

Playing against Quahon, the Axes had to withstand two rounds of 4-4-4. And that was the difference between a W and L. Axegrinders are the premier anti-Large figures in the game, and they help to keep figures like Q9 and Nilfheim in check. Quahon toasted them too easily for my liking.

Ranged multiple specials are the most potent attacks in the game. Take excellent units like Braxas, Kaemon Awa, Q10, Q9, Nilfheim ... all A/A- figures ... none of them come close to having the sort of reach that Quahon's special gives him. Sure, Quahon can only hit one figure at max distance, but to my mind it's still a game-changer.

I can understand that you all put in hard work on this figure and don't like to hear your work criticized, which is fair enough. But I'd say 190 is considerably under-valuing this figure.
Quahon toasted them easily because apart from the one 1-skull roll mentioned in my report, I rolled 2- and 3-skull Lightning Breaths all day long (with a few 4s thrown in to convince people she is broken ). Quahon's reach is considerable, but as others have said, positioning can deny her that (due to the nature of our map, this may have been more difficult than on others) and limit her threat range to 9. For the most part, I felt my opponents feared LBSA more than they should have; half the time they were trying too hard on positioning, the other half they were giving up and not trying at all. An all-or-nothing with either approach would've been better, IMO. And speaking of the map, Greenscale Bonding gave me control of key chokepoints a couple times, at least for a turn. In our match, maybe it would've been better to follow AE with Braxas and gas my bonding/screen? I wouldn't know for sure without playing it that way, though.

The comparison to Braxas is fair. B's +1Life, +1Move, and easier positioning may not be worth quite 20 Points more than +1Attack and an arguably better breath weapon. Compared to Nilf, on the other hand, it's hard to justify an additional bonding option and +1Life as 5 Points more than +1Move and +1Defense (giving Nilf much better survivability. I think Quahon falls somewhere between, and based on your experience with her so far it's perfectly reasonable to criticize 190 as being too low (though I disagree). Really, her success that day was almost all about constant above-average attacks (then again we won't talk about my 1- and 2-skull normal attacks from height on Grimnak...)


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Last edited by NecroBlade; December 3rd, 2012 at 10:16 PM.
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  #43  
Old December 3rd, 2012, 10:45 PM
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Re: The Book of Quahon

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlipperySlope View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
However, Quahon has worse survivability than all three of them, is slower than all of them except Q9, and is harder to place than even Nilfheim. She's not broken.
I played two Q9 armies Saturday, beat them handily. Due to the Q gun's 6 range, the Axegrinders got in with withstanding one round of 3-3-3. (Played Mok, killed him no problem. Didn't face Nilfheim, but wouldn't have been afraid of him, either.)
That's odd, since Nilf delivers the exact same 4/4/4 you fear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlipperySlope View Post
Playing against Quahon, the Axes had to withstand two rounds of 4-4-4.
Two rounds of 4-4-4 to what? To engage her? If that's the case, then it sounds like you had your army strung out in a way that played right into Quahon's hands. Again, her range is just 4 - shorter than Nilfheim's or Q9's. Mass your troops 5+ spaces away, stay patient, don't rush in and allow yourself to get strung out. If Quahon comes to you, then presumably she is giving up favorable height to do it.

This is not wild-eyed theoryscape on my part (not that any of my theoryscaping is particularly wild-eyed ). I played against Quahon myself with Axegrinders last night in the online league. Quahon went down to Axegrinders relatively easily. I patiently built figures up more than 4 spaces from her perch, so Quahon had to move forward and off of height to hit me. She only got one big rip through my army before I was on her. I generally engaged her with two Axegrinders each turn, denying her a third target. Bad defense rolls from Utahscott didn't hurt, but that's part of the package with Quahon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlipperySlope View Post
Ranged multiple specials are the most potent attacks in the game.
I would argue that Wait Then Fire is the most potent attack in the game, but I'm nitpicking. Anyway...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlipperySlope View Post
Take excellent units like Braxas, Kaemon Awa, Q10, Q9, Nilfheim ... all A/A- figures ... none of them come close to having the sort of reach that Quahon's special gives him. Sure, Quahon can only hit one figure at max distance, but to my mind it's still a game-changer.
Well, if we're talking about a single target, Q9/Q10+Laglor can hit 10 spaces away with the normal, but again, I'm nitpicking.

It's a game changer in some situations, sure. But the issues you're talking about really don't have that much to do with that maximum reach. Think back to the game with Necro. I'm willing to bet that, whenever possible, Jacob was going after the Axegrinders that were closest to Quahon with LBSE, not the ones that were farthest away. Going for the least threatening targets would be illogical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlipperySlope View Post
I can understand that you all put in hard work on this figure and don't like to hear your work criticized, which is fair enough.
I guess I can't deny that some people don't like that, since other people have basically confirmed that they feel that way. But me? Come on, be serious. I love this stuff. Not only because I like nothing more than talking trash about Heroscape strategy, but because if you're debating, you care. I love to see people debating whether the C3V stuff is broken, the way people debated whether Greenscales or Fire Elementals were broken when those figures came out.
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  #44  
Old December 3rd, 2012, 10:51 PM
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Re: The Book of Quahon

2 Game sample is hardly a sample. I am not apart of the C3V team, so I don't care. The game I played against Quahon, I had Q9 and some of the Wyrmlings. With some decent positioning, and Q9 getting height on Quahon, she fell fast in one round due to her fragile defense.

She is no doubt powerful, and demands the opponents play take into account her special attack(As it should when you have a 190 point unit). Same way you have to worry about Zelrigs attacks etc...

Should the Dwarves just get to walk right up to her? Her goal is to kill them before they get to her. Eventually they will and likely carve her up once they do.

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  #45  
Old December 3rd, 2012, 10:58 PM
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Re: The Book of Quahon

Remember, Quahon is much more whiff prone than Nilfheim is. For every four skull blast you get that zaps through three squaddies, you have a complete wasted turn that lets your opponent get that much closer to reaching your dragon.

I do agree with Dok though; Quahon is more offensively powerful than Nilfheim, but her survivability, maneuverability, and overall versatility is trumped by Nilfheim.

PS: Quahon may be getting some more offline tournament play soon.... stay tuned for more!

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Last edited by vegietarian18; December 3rd, 2012 at 11:13 PM. Reason: fixed up typos
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  #46  
Old December 3rd, 2012, 11:13 PM
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Re: The Book of Quahon

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Originally Posted by dok View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlipperySlope View Post
I can understand that you all put in hard work on this figure and don't like to hear your work criticized, which is fair enough.
I guess I can't deny that some people don't like that, since other people have basically confirmed that they feel that way. But me? Come on, be serious. I love this stuff. Not only because I like nothing more than talking trash about Heroscape strategy, but because if you're debating, you care. I love to see people debating whether the C3V stuff is broken, the way people debated whether Greenscales or Fire Elementals were broken when those figures came out.
I agree with dok, feel free to criticize...then I get hear an awesome debate . Plus we are not infallible, just like the hasbro designers...but thorough playtesting said 190 was good, and none of our public playtesters said she was too cheap. So, I think your one bad experience with exceptional dice by NB may be clouding your judgement...but I'm only an outside observer of this wonderful conversation.

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  #47  
Old December 5th, 2012, 07:55 PM
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Re: The Book of Quahon

Judging by NecroBlade's last post in the L'ville thread, it sounds like he'll be bringing Quahon to future tournaments, so I think we're about to see more about her performance.

I agree it's fun to have these discussions, and I can agree with most of what you guys are saying. The dice played a role (pun intended), as Necro was rolling lots of 3-skull and a couple of 4-skull attacks. The map was probably even a huger factor, as it was simply impossible NOT to get strung out (road map with bridge = strung out by definition), though maybe a better player than myself, like dok, could have found a winning strategy.

I also respect the fact there are other potent Ranged attacks out there, be it the Q-gun or Wait then fire. Heck, in the right situation, even Braxas or the Airborne Elite can wreck whole armies in a turn on two.

But, when you look at any of the those other high-potentcy attacks, you notice that they either have a shorter range or fewer attack dice, or both. All of the figures you guys have been comparing Quahon to (including Laglor) illustrate this point. That's particularly clear with figures like Q9, Q10, and Kaemon, which have longer-ranged single, non-special attacks and shorter-ranged multiple attacks.

I would have no problem with Quahon if there were some stipulation like "Quahon cannot hit a figure that is further than 6 clear sight spaces away" or if she had fewer attack dice to throw, like maybe 3-3-3 or even 4-3-2. Or if she were in the 210-220 point range.

Anyway, it's been fun discussing this, and maybe C3V can give some attention to an anti-Quahon unit.

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  #48  
Old December 5th, 2012, 08:03 PM
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Re: The Book of Quahon

You cannot hit further than 4 spaces away unless a condition is met.(Another figure within the range of 3, then another in the range of 2). It is a restrictive power. The opponent clearly knows that if they place figures within 3 spaces of eachother, they can be targeted.

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