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  #25  
Old May 21st, 2020, 12:05 AM
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Re: vegie's C3V/SoV Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by vegietarian18 View Post
I'm not sure if that's just because they're a 2 man squad, or because they're overpriced, or if 2 attack is too inconsistent, but they feel very hard to save.
All of the above...

This does feel like a bit of a knee-jerk reaction. The sample size is really small here. I don't think Greenies are A material, and I don't think Spiders are quite there either. Greenies still get stomped by bonding melee. Maybe Heavies having a terrible matchup into Cathar is enough to where the Greenies don't have to worry about seeing them, but Dwarves and Knights still have the dragon matchups. Marutuk is really good into dragons too.
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  #26  
Old May 21st, 2020, 12:13 AM
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Re: vegie's C3V/SoV Power Rankings

It's tough, I feel like Greenscales are a step above the A- figures but not one of the best of the A figures. But three people bought Greenscales to this event, and one brought Spiders. That's much higher representation than any of the other A- figures.

kevindola was able to beat my dad's Knights of Weston using Spiders because of kind a board vulnerability in Highways and Dieways. He built a wall of Spiders in the water outside his startzone, and Spiders standing in that water cannot be attacked. My dad was forced to go through the water on the other side of the startzone as Marcu was clogging the bridge. Although that part of Highways and Dieways was an advantage I do have to wonder if another board would have made the Marro Warriors even better against the Knights. Although that's an argument in favor of the Marros not in favor of the Spiders and Greenscales, although Dragons do pair more nicely with Marros than other things.

I do think the second order effects of Cathar should tamp down the purest melee builds though. Like I don't think it's safe to run Knights x5 Gilbert or Heavies x5 Grimnak in a C3V meta because you need more lives of bonding. Not just to soak the Braced Spears initially, but you need something that can stay engaged with the Cathar long term so the Cathar don't just kill the squad figures that you engaged them with and make you take the Spear again. But maybe that's an argument for Dwarves being better in C3V, as you can pair them with things like Braxas or Q9 or Incendiborgs, and those guys can you win you the Cathar matchup, and the Dwarves can win you the Greenscale matchup.

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  #27  
Old May 21st, 2020, 12:23 AM
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Re: vegie's C3V/SoV Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by vegietarian18 View Post
It's tough, I feel like Greenscales are a step above the A- figures but not one of the best of the A figures. But three people bought Greenscales to this event, and one brought Spiders. That's much higher representation than any of the other A- figures.

kevindola was able to beat my dad's Knights of Weston using Spiders because of kind a board vulnerability in Highways and Dieways. He built a wall of Spiders in the water outside his startzone, and Spiders standing in that water cannot be attacked. My dad was forced to go through the water on the other side of the startzone as Marcu was clogging the bridge. Although that part of Highways and Dieways was an advantage I do have to wonder if another board would have made the Marro Warriors even better against the Knights. Although that's an argument in favor of the Marros not in favor of the Spiders and Greenscales, although Dragons do pair more nicely with Marros than other things.

I do think the second order effects of Cathar should tamp down the purest melee builds though. Like I don't think it's safe to run Knights x5 Gilbert or Heavies x5 Grimnak in a C3V meta because you need more lives of bonding. Not just to soak the Braced Spears initially, but you need something that can stay engaged with the Cathar long term so the Cathar don't just kill the squad figures that you engaged them with and make you take the Spear again. But maybe that's an argument for Dwarves being better in C3V, as you can pair them with things like Braxas or Q9 or Incendiborgs, and those guys can you win you the Cathar matchup, and the Dwarves can win you the Greenscale matchup.
I agree with you on Catharís effect. I wouldnít play Heavies in a VC-Inclusive environment: either Iím weak to Cathar, or Iím building around Cathar and weakening my army against the rest of the field.

As for representation: yes, although I think itís also just personal preference. To draw a parallel from X-Wing 2.0: at the beginning of 2.0, some ridiculous percentage (90+%) of Rebel lists had an X-Wing (one out of maybe 12-13 ships in that faction). That didnít necessarily make it the correct choice (it was actually the opposite: you actively hurt your chances of making the cut if you brought an X-Wing). Iím not saying this is the same thing because dragons are clearly really good, but preference is often a large factor. Iíll never run 4th, 10th, or Q9 in 4x4, even though I think those are probably all correct choices to bring.
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  #28  
Old May 24th, 2020, 04:49 AM
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Re: vegie's C3V/SoV Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by vegietarian18 View Post
So the Bring the Cheese Event is over, with kevindola's Spiders x4, Quahon, Raelin, Marro Warriors, Marcu triumphing over Sir Heroscape's Greenscales x3, Nilfheim, Raelin, Marro Warriors.

I moved up both Greenscales and Spiders to A. I don't know exactly why I had left them at A- before: Greenscales were A- in the dok power rankings and I actually moved up Fyorlags from B+. But both of these squads can contend with the best, obviously, so I put them up with the big boys. They have an interesting dynamic where I think Nilfheim is better than Quahon, but Spiders are better than Greenscales. So I think the two pairings sharing the A ranking makes sense.

Really what this event showed is how good the Marro Warriors are though, and that they deserve the A+. These were the only Marro Warriors armies and they met in the finals and the Marro Warriors did a ton of work in the finals and in the games leading up to it. They are very safe and very good. Adding another dimension to your army is really helpful.
Yeah Marro Warriors are definitely top tier. They’re the best endgame unit (well, I guess maybe besides Isamu for points) and clutch so many games. You don’t even have to restrict them for the endgame, they’re great at all phases of the game and there’s plenty you can do with them before it. Any army, any matchup, any map, they’re amazing.

Spiders also have Kozil with VC who’s solid. He’s like a Krug for them. Not quite as good as Krug and is certainly no Quahon, but better than the Wyvern (though I think the Wyvern’s better than where you have it) and obviously better than Sujoah. He’s a strong bonding hero.

And Quahon with Greenscales is a great army as well.
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  #29  
Old May 24th, 2020, 12:30 PM
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Re: vegie's C3V/SoV Power Rankings

The Wyvern is pretty solid but I think it's a lot better in RtW than standard.

It's actually an interesting concept. There's a lot of cool high impact powers like Theracus Carry and Wyvern Talon Grab and Tandros Kreel combat challenge that are pretty powerful but the top tier armies are able to just blast through those powers and make them irrelevant in terms of who will win the game. But once you tamp down the armies a bit then those powers can be game-defining.

Kozil is just good because he can jump into a pile of squads and take a few squaddies down with him. He's like Krug, but he he is anti-squad instead of anti-hero, but it's better to be anti-squad. He doesn't have as high of potential as Krug though.

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  #30  
Old June 16th, 2020, 12:01 PM
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Re: vegie's C3V/SoV Power Rankings

Buccaneers of Tortuga have really impressed me in this latest online event. I don't know if they're B+ tier for sure yet but they're certainly better than I thought. I think I just misunderstood how their Opportune Strike works and thought you needed an OM not a revealed OM.

They basically have +1 attack permanently against Raelin, or a bonding Nilfheim, or any bonding hero for that matter, and +1 against everything in the game if they win init on their OM1. Being good against the heroes and not the squads gives them a different style than many other figures. You're just trying to blow your opponent up by cutting off the head of their army. But that synergizes well with the rest of their powers and opponents are not really prepared for that kind of style. I could see them being as good as Mezzos or Phantoms to be honest but need more experimentation.

Otherwise I think the latest online event is mostly informative to HoB meta which is a little warped. Vicerion the Blood Knight is insane in HoB but I don't think it translates as much to normal games.

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  #31  
Old July 4th, 2020, 01:09 PM
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Re: vegie's C3V/SoV Power Rankings

I think the Buccaneers are B+. They’re as good as all of the other squads in your B+ group, in my opinion. I think in HoB they’re an A unit. The trouble I see them running into is getting a meaningful number of them in the action. I found a lot of success in having them spread across the map so at any given turn I could attack a variety of figures, taking advantage of their Opportunistic power. It would be more challenging to have this kind of board state in a game where they have to be placed in their start zones.

I agree this squad hasn’t been fully figured out yet and more experimentation is needed to nail down an accurate ranking. They have an interesting matchup against bonding squads like greenscales and dreadguls where they have 4 attack against the bonding hero and disengage to get to said hero. I think in other matchups (against armies that after turn 1 they won’t get their Opportunistic bonus attack) you really need to pair them with a hero that can be effective on OMs 2 and 3.
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