Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

[Astroking112]

I'll add to what others have said: I'm a fan of the design overall, and it was a close vote. I think that with some tweaks, the Wulfing Hunters would stand a good chance of making it to testing. It's ultimately your decision for whether you want to alter the design for a resubmission, but if you choose to do so, I'd be happy to continue offering feedback on them.

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

I am quite confident that, for some (or all) designers, it must be an unpleasant surprise to get over the public hurdle, only to stumble at the hidden one. I regret that it happens, but I won't apologize for taking our role seriously. If a designer can't persuade a simple majority of C3V voters that a unit belongs in the canon, then perhaps it's just not that design's time. Scytale (or anyone) may have a different view of what happens and how things came to be the way they are, and I encourage them to share, if they want.

If you're interested in discussing our internal objections more, I encourage you to tag a few of us in your own design thread, and I expect someone will be along to discuss the issues with you. There are some specifics that Scy and I have glossed over, but if you want to hear them, I'll share.

I'd also like to encourage any Inner Sanctum members to publicly raise concerns, too, for what it's worth. Public submitters are not privy to the internal conversation, which makes the process feel opaque. Scytale does an excellent job of summarizing the discussion each time, but I think that most submitters would be happier if some of this feedback was raised earlier in the process so that they can consider it before testing and the submission. The Pre-SoV Workshop is a great thread for anyone to monitor for units that haven't yet made it to the Inner Sanctum, I think, and it'd be great to have more non-judge members speak up there to make the internal vote a bit more predictable.

[Shiftrex]

That would probably be helpful in determining if I want to abandon this unit or not. Because something being unintuitive or unthematic is a heavily subjective thing based upon perspective. You might say that its unintuitive for me to make any positive changes because I'm trying to guess what a lot of unfamiliar people would like on their pizza and theyve just told me that my guess lacked "flavor" lol.

[Scytale]

The SoV process is this:

1. A design is submitted.
2. SoV Judges vote to review. A majority is required to move forward.
3. The entire Inner Sanctum (C3V+SoV) discusses and votes to review. A majority is required to move forward.
4. SoV Judges test and review the design. Four out of five votes are required to move forward.
5. The design undergoes Editing adjustments and Art makes a card.
6. The entire Inner Sanctum votes to induct. A majority is required.

The first Inner Sanctum voting is a sort of vetting process. We used to not have that step, but it would be problematic in a lot of ways if a design got all the way through SoV reviewing but was rejected at the very end. That can still happen in theory, but the initial IS vote plus the Judges' reviews cover us pretty well. (There have been one or two that were close to failing there, but none have.)

What causes a unit to fail Inner Sanctum Review? That's a difficult one to describe and understand, and it's caused no small amount of consternation for submiters and followers. That process is done in secret, as are all things in the world of C3V, so outsiders aren't allowed to see the discussions that go on. It can come of as capricious, exclusionary, and downright snobbish. In some small sense, I suppose, it is, as this is the point in the process where a design is most susceptible to the IS's group think. Not that I think IS as a whole is locked in a design rut, rather that it's a very diverse set of strongly-opinionated folks who take their responsibility to the canon very seriously. Nothing is "right" for everyone, and everything is "wrong" for at least one person. Ultimately, this pushes units to be more conservative in its design, whether it comes through C3V or SoV. I don't really think that's a bad thing, though; pushing boundaries should be done with careful scrutiny. More importantly, it helps to ensure that the designs that make it through the gauntlet really are the best of the best.

[Dad_Scaper]

Originally Posted by Astroking112

I'd also like to encourage any Inner Sanctum members to publicly raise concerns, too, for what it's worth. Public submitters are not privy to the internal conversation, which makes the process feel opaque. Scytale does an excellent job of summarizing the discussion each time, but I think that most submitters would be happier if some of this feedback was raised earlier in the process so that they can consider it before testing and the submission. The Pre-SoV Workshop is a great thread for anyone to monitor for units that haven't yet made it to the Inner Sanctum, I think, and it'd be great to have more non-judge members speak up there to make the internal vote a bit more predictable.

For myself, and I know for some of my colleagues, we are very busy. Not just in our day-to-day lives, but here on this board. I do not accept that it's my responsibility to make sure that nominated units are at the point where I am ready to vote in their favor before they are even nominated. I stop by there sometimes but I can't and won't accept that it's something that should go on my "to-do" list.

Even if I did, the process of discussing the nominees with others inside the C3V is often very important in developing my own thinking. So I may go back and forth about my own vote, during the conversation.

I stand by everything I said about appreciating the work that others do here, including especially the content creators. But ultimately they bear responsibility for the quality of their work, and its suitability for the canon. Not I.

I've already offered to supplement feedback in the appropriate places. I'm sure others would, too. That's what I can offer.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Shiftrex

That would probably be helpful in determining if I want to abandon this unit or not. Because something being unintuitive or unthematic is a heavily subjective thing based upon perspective. You might say that its unintuitive for me to make any positive changes because I'm trying to guess what a lot of unfamiliar people would like on their pizza and theyve just told me that my guess lacked "flavor" lol.

Yeah, it's tough, and I thought the Wulfings were likely to make it through (with Hunter bonding being a potential sticking point). But where the theme and choices clicked for me, others took issue.

You didn't get to see the discussion, but I and others who did would be willing to help further refine the design. I can think of a few interesting ways the design could be modified.

[Leaf_It]

@Shiftrex
I'll post here, an abridged version of what I said on the inside:

The Wulfing are a new species for HeroScape, as far as I'm aware. The C3V/SoV hasn't done much for Ullar, so I'm happy to see them there. Despite other Hunters being from various other Generals, Ullar feels right for them.

I think it's odd that the Wulfing can't be silent next to each other, but I can understand them loosing that benefit when next to any non-hunter. I would prefer that it was worded something like "While a Wulfing Hunter is not adjacent to more than 1 Hunter it has no visible hit zones." This would also clear up the concern that there would be confusion about being next to your own figures.

I think that choosing not to attack can be a fitting thematic aspect to Hunter's Howl. It works the same way with the Mohican's War Cry.

I think this design, with a few small changes, would pass the next time you submitted it.

[Dad_Scaper]

Originally Posted by Leaf_It

@Shiftrex
I'll post here, an abridged version of what I said on the inside:

I think this design, with a few small changes, would pass the next time you submitted it.

I hope that people do not come away from rejection thinking that their goal should be to twist a knob here and turn a dial there and pronounce it done. I hope the response is not "what incremental modifications can I make to get this just barely over the finish line."

Rather, I hope designers are always, even at this stage, looking at feedback and asking themselves, "How can I make this unit the best it can be?" Because this unit can maybe get better, even good enough to pass a vote in the IS, with a few little changes. But I want to see it shine as brightly as it can possibly shine, and that might need a little more work.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

For myself, and I know for some of my colleagues, we are very busy. Not just in our day-to-day lives, but here on this board. I do not accept that it's my responsibility to make sure that nominated units are at the point where I am ready to vote in their favor before they are even nominated. I stop by there sometimes but I can't and won't accept that it's something that should go on my "to-do" list.

Even if I did, the process of discussing the nominees with others inside the C3V is often very important in developing my own thinking. So I may go back and forth about my own vote, during the conversation.

I stand by everything I said about appreciating the work that others do here, including especially the content creators. But ultimately they bear responsibility for the quality of their work, and its suitability for the canon. Not I.

I've already offered to supplement feedback in the appropriate places. I'm sure others would, too. That's what I can offer.

To be clear, that is not directed at you or any one person in particular (nor is it intended to imply that it should be part of our "to-do" list or an active responsibility). I know very well how time-consuming it is and absolutely attest to that: heck, I'm not even able to get to all of the C3V units during their review windows.

I am just addressing what is most likely to cause frustration here; off the top of my head, I know that a few of us were active in the Pre-SoV Thread for this draft, but Scytale and I are two of the public voting members who gave the most feedback. Of course if the judges' concerns are addressed, a unit is more likely to pass their initial vote to review; the unpredictability then comes from the internal discussion board with many new eyes are on the design for the first time, each with their own opinion. That's not a bad thing (I'd even argue that it generally improves designs), but it can undoubtedly be frustrating to not get a bit of this feedback along the way. Any bits and opinions that we can share along the way help in that regard, even if it is not for every design or just done when we rarely have time. It's just a gentle reminder that not only judges are welcome to share feedback on submissions, and if we each do a little bit when we're able, designs would be better off for it.

[Avendoram]

I suppose I'll try to submit my first one SOV submission. I went looking through all my customs trying to decide which one could fit into the official game the most, and it feels like Havech Igniter is the best option. The figure is Storm Golem with Flamer from AT-43. One or two copies are available in most Storm Golem attachment boxes which are still commonly found for around 20 dollars on ebay.

While his statline is powerful, I feel his slow speed and the slight chance of backfiring makes up for it. Not to mention his 1 life as a common hero makes him an easy target for ranged attackers.

[Scytale]

I like the idea of adding to the Havechs, but there are some problems here. First, all of the figures in the Storm Golem box are used for Havech Eradicators. A figure used for a Havech hero needs to stand out from the others somehow. There is a chance you could submit as an easy repaint, but ...

The submitter needs to provide evidence that the figure is readily available. Listing various retailers and how many they have in stock is the standard, and eBay numbers usually aren't accepted because of the transient nature of eBay. For a Common Hero, you have to assume that players will want at least three copies, so you'll need to show over 100 available. If this was a repaint of a Havech Eradicator, that would be a special case as players probably already have some sets, so you could probably get away with less, but we'd have to discuss with the Inner Sanctum.

There are some rules problems with the unit too, though. First, while I like the idea of Flamethrower, the idea of "between" isn't really defined. Concealment uses it, but only as a count of tiles and it specifies to use the minimum number of spaces. In this case, while it's obvious what it means when attacking in a straight line, if the target figure is not in a straight line away, exactly what figures are "in between" the two? Do you get to pick which path, or the opponent, or does it take all possible shortest paths? If it was limited to straight-line only it can work, but as-is it doesn't. Also, it doesn't state if it works as a single attack roll or a separate attack roll for each. Unless each is a separate attack, this needs to be a special attack because a single normal attack cannot affect more than one figure.

I like the idea here, and the stats are good. The overall concept of the powers is good, but need to be reworked in a way that fits better into the game's rules. The figure issue would need to be addressed as well.

to review the Havech Igniter

[robbdaman]

The Therian Storm Golems are the actually official sculpts for the Eradicators. I can't see spreading those out as anything else. If it was some of the other Therian sculpts maybe but I think they are harder to come by than $20 on eBay regularly, closer to $35 or more. I'd say figure availability alone is poor in this case.

[Shiftrex]

Some good ideas going there! Remember that the Pre-SoV thread is a great place to get feedback before submitting too. Can help unwind any mechanical or theme based issues, everyone is very helpful.

Flamethrower figures are great, there are a few easy ways to do it too like the Vulcamechs I think....? Anyways, if you're looking for a new figure for that I'll keep on the lookout as well for something similar, I'm always sifting through new mini releases.