The Spellbook of Mesmerize

[Lazy Orang]

Okay, in all my experience with it before and after the change, I wouldn't be comforable with more than 30. However, I'm reasonably okay with that, so I Propose Final Editing at 30 Points!

Oh, and if any Heroes looking here could also check out the vote for Final Editing for Mordo and Hypnotise in Mordo's book, I'd greatly appreciate that.

~Lazy Orang, noting that TrollBrute got the exact opposite of her luck - not that it blocking things is unlikely, but 6 times in a row is a major statistical anomaly.

[Ronin]

It may be a good idea to wait a minute before proposing anything. I know you're eager to move on and put Mordo behind you, but you're not really speeding things up by calling for votes before anyone's had a chance to discuss anything.

(I don't know that anyone's going to object to 30 too strongly, but you're inevitably going to get another discussion about where the points should be, and it'll be happening in the middle of a vote now, which always complicates these things)

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Ronin

It may be a good idea to wait a minute before proposing anything. I know you're eager to move on and put Mordo behind you, but you're not really speeding things up by calling for votes before anyone's had a chance to discuss anything.

(I don't know that anyone's going to object to 30 too strongly, but you're inevitably going to get another discussion about where the points should be, and it'll be happening in the middle of a vote now, which always complicates these things)

In all my experience with testing the spell, 30 is the highest I'm happy with in its present form, and since I doubt dok and co. will support going lower, further discussion at this stage doesn't feel like it will be productive. We've found what seems like an acceptable middle-ground, neither group is likely to move further either way, let's just go with it.

[TrollBrute]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

~Lazy Orang, noting that TrollBrute got the exact opposite of her luck - not that it blocking things is unlikely, but 6 times in a row is a major statistical anomaly.

On the flip side, I didn't test it against any Magical Defense figures or anyone who can deal additional wounds on an attack, or even anyone with Master Manipulator or another power that can trigger based on wounds, so the value in my games was less than it could have been.

On the other, other hand, I didn't play it against high-range figures or units with good SAs, so it won't always have that value. I really think we could use at least one more set of tests here, focusing on the spell, without Hypnotize or Mordo. It's possible that my games are an outlier, or that yours are an outlier, and a bunch more wins at 30 points would mean it's worth more than that.

[TrollBrute]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

We've found what seems like an acceptable middle-ground, neither group is likely to move further either way, let's just go with it.

I'm not willing to compromise on balance. I really don't want to add anything more to the reeval list.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by TrollBrute

I'm not willing to compromise on balance. I really don't want to add anything more to the reeval list.

And I'm not willing to add a spell that is overpriced and useless, and in my experience of the spell, 30 is the ceiling for the present version being worthwhile.

[Ronin]

I'll run a few games here and see how it goes. Should be able to knock em out pretty quickly.

[TrollBrute]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

And I'm not willing to add a spell that is overpriced and useless, and in my experience of the spell, 30 is the ceiling for the present version being worthwhile.

Can I just ask this: how often do you think it will block a wound?

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by TrollBrute

Can I just ask this: how often do you think it will block a wound?

The answer to that varies wildly on the match-up. My guess would be approximately 50% of the time, maybe a tad over but there is no way to answer specifically. If I'm facing off against a low level attack, it more likely than not will. If I'm being smashed by someone like Thor, it most likely not - though either way, it could still easily defy expectations and go the other way. In my games, it still resulted in the caster taking wounds from attacks of two - unlikely, but not too far out on the bell-curve. The fact that it only works against the one attack per turn now drastically reduces its potential in most matchups, and while there'll be a handful where it would likely overperform (i.e. vs. Fists of Fury), this is nothing new they now really are few and far between and costing it on the basis of those seems unfair, and will price it out of regular play.

[TrollBrute]

I think 50% is underestimating things, and I think the tests back that up, but let's go with 50. Preventing a wound on A MD figure is worth 40-70 points or so, just dividing points by life number. Add in the potential for preventing powers/blocking additional parts or attacks, and 30-40 sounds like a good estimate. I'm not asking for a raise above 30 yet, but I'd like to see more tests.

[Lazy Orang]

Another thing to bear in mind is that assuming that all the time that an attack is blocked when Mesmerise is used, the attack is being blocked by Mesmerise, is a false equivalence - a number of times, the attack would have simply been blocked anyway, which is why I've always rolled the excess dice that would have been rolled normally when testing this spell. Just because you blocked the attack after using Mesmerise doesn't necessarily mean the spell helped you in any way, shape or form - I feel like this is something that's been forgotten when looking at the results since most people don't roll the extra dice, and it has resulted in inflating the actual effect of the spell to something far greater than it actually is by counting each time an attack was blocked on its use as a wound blocked by Mesmerise.

[Ronin]

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Mesmerize @30

Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Doctor Fate, Wong, Mesmerize (410) vs Red Skull, Raven (410)

Spoiler Alert!

Spell use: cast against Red Skull, received a wound anyway

Red Skull and Raven take the momentum initially, as Skull uses the Cube to separate Wong from his Master, but Fate manages to take down Skull (and a couple OMs with him) on a lucky hit, which gives him and Wong a chance to take down Raven.

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Fate with 4 wounds, Wong unwounded

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Doctor Fate, Wong, Mesmerize (410) vs Red Skull, Raven (410)

Spoiler Alert!

Spell use: cast against Red Skull, avoided a wound (2 skulls to 2 shields). Used at the end of the first round and denied Raven a turn (during which she could have used Soul Self - she did not get to use it as a result).

Fairly similar story to last time, but it broke slightly better for Fate this time, thanks to Mesmerize's success.

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Fate with 3 wounds, Wong unwounded

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Doctor Fate, Wong, Mesmerize (410) vs Red Skull, Raven (410)

Spoiler Alert!

Spell use: cast against Red Skull, avoided a wound (2 skulls to 2 shields). Avoided Raven taking a turn with Master Manipulator

Went better for Team Skull this round, with Skull getting an OHKO in on Wong. Fate gets Mesmerize working, but that's about the only thing that goes right for him.

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Red Skull and Raven both unwounded

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Doctor Fate, Wong, Mesmerize (410) vs Red Skull, Raven (410)

Spoiler Alert!

Spell use: not used

Fate slings a lot of skulls in this one, and manages to put Raven down quickly, giving him a pretty efficient victory, though Wong does get mauled by Red Skull.

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Fate with 1 wound

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Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Doctor Fate, Wong, Mesmerize (410) vs Punisher, Batgirl (Cass), Robin (Dick) (410)

Spoiler Alert!

Spell use: cast against Batgirl. Subtracted attack down to 1, did not take a wound. (0 skulls to 1 shield)

Punisher takes out Wong (and puts a couple wounds on Fate) by hitting Fate and Wong with his SAs, avoiding his Mesmerize-vulnerable normal attack. Fate gets lucky and only spends two attacks taking out Robin. He manages to get height on Punisher and take him out, leaving him up against Batgirl in the endgame. Batgirl might have taken this one, but her Defensive Premonition rolls were awful and consistently failed.

Fate didn't take a wound from the reduced attack, which may have won him the game. Not technically a sure thing that he would have taken one if he hadn't cast Mesmerize, though he would have more likely taken one than not.

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Fate with 4 wounds

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Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Scarlet Witch, Jubilee, Mesmerize (375) vs Doctor Doom (375)

Spoiler Alert!

Spell use: cast against Doctor Doom after he Mystic Power Drained Scarlet Witch (and had the potential to deal more than one wound). Did not take a wound (1 skull to 2 shields).

This one took forever to play out. Scarlet Witch casts Mesmerize and doesn't take a wound, but she's practically impossible to wound anyway, so it's hard to say that's entirely up to the spell.

After what feels like eighty million years, Doom wins out. He manages to keep Jubilee from using Fireworks for most of the match by getting adjacent to both Wanda and Jubilee.

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Doctor Doom with 4 wounds

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Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Selene Gallio, Jubilee, Mesmerize (450) vs Doctor Fate, Rover (450)

Spoiler Alert!

Spell use: cast against Doctor Fate when he had height advantage. Did not take a wound (2 skulls to 3 shields)

Selene gets a bunch of wounds in, then Fate gets a bunch of wounds in, but Fate lucks out and hits a bit harder. They also both one-shot each others' sidekicks, resulting in a fairly even outcome.

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Doctor Fate with 3 wounds

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Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Selene Gallio, Jubilee, Mesmerize (450) vs Doctor Fate, Rover (450)

Spoiler Alert!

Spell use: cast against Doctor Fate when he had height advantage. Did not take a wound (1 skull to 1 shield). Almost certainly avoided a wound.

Selene ducks one attack from Fate, but then he nearly OHKOs her, and after a failed attempt at vampirism, he finishes her off on a 4-skull roll. Doctor Fate is kicking some righteous butt in both this game and the last.

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Doctor Fate with 1 wound

THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: I'll leave analysis to others for the moment because it's a little late for me. Critical thinking is a problem for tomorrow Ronin.