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  #37  
Old December 22nd, 2010, 07:54 PM
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Re: Wikileaks' Julian Assange - Hero or Villain?

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I don't know what will happen to Assange. I have no idea if the rape charges against him are true or if they are a way of shutting him up. I sure don't think that he's a hero.
Let's use the correct wordage. It's not rape he is being charged with. The sex was entirely consensual. He is charged with sex without a condom. That is the charge. 2 counts of sex without a condom. While that might be a dickish move, it is by no means equal to rape nor should it be listed as such. The bias the media has put forward on this "sexual assault" charge is ludicrous. He should answer to it, and if guilty, pay the fine for it. But let's at least be honest about what it is.

EDIT: Hell, one of the women even bragged about it on twitter before trying to delete it.

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  #38  
Old December 22nd, 2010, 07:54 PM
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Re: Wikileaks' Julian Assange - Hero or Villain?

Whoa, that sparked some replies. I didn't read through them all yet, but to answer some of them.

It doesn't' matter if we know or not, it won't change, none of it will get fixed, nothing will happen about any of it. If you think otherwise your being overly idealistic, welcome to reality.

Best line I read so far was Daddy Scapers, something to the effect of we dont' know everything that goes on because we weren't meant to know.

I will see if I can dig up the articles about troop deployments and other sensitive military info that was leaked. When I get done my work for the evening.

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  #39  
Old December 22nd, 2010, 08:01 PM
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Re: Wikileaks' Julian Assange - Hero or Villain?

I can't get a link for this because I got it from a cached copy of a website, but a quote from it. But a quote from it I pulled.

"Assange’s vow to publicize more internal government documents comes in the wake of furious criticism of WikiLeaks from the Obama administration and members of Congress over its publication of 91,000 classified U.S. documents on the war in Afghanistan — at least some of which appear to identify the names of U.S. and Afghan government informants and cooperative parties in the war against the Taliban.

So he's publishing the names of informants, which endangers the lives of those people, What purpose does this serve?

I'll post a link If i can find a page with the whole story thats still up.

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  #40  
Old December 22nd, 2010, 08:10 PM
jschild jschild is offline
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Re: Wikileaks' Julian Assange - Hero or Villain?

Here's what the Pentagon review on the Afghan release said...

Quote:
An ongoing Pentagon review of the massive flood of secret documents made public by the WikiLeaks website has so far found no evidence that the disclosure harmed U.S. national security or endangered American troops in the field, a Pentagon official told NBC News on Monday…

David Lapan, deputy assistant secretary of defense for media operations, told NBC News on Monday that a preliminary review by a Pentagon “assessment” team has so far not identified any documents whose release could damage national security. Moreover, he said, none of the documents reviewed so far carries a classification level above “secret” — the lowest category of intelligence material in terms of sensitivity…

While the team so far has not found any that would meet any of those criteria, Lapan noted that WikiLeaks has yet to publish all the documents it claims to have. Moreover, the Pentagon review has been stymied by the fact that, for at least part of the day Monday, the military team was unable to access WikiLeaks.org — apparently because of the heavy traffic it was receiving. In effect, the Pentagon analysts were unable to read classified government documents that had already been posted and read by the general public around the world.
EDIT: I can say I honestly believe our actions have endangered more lives (both here and in Afghanistan) than Wikileaks ever could.

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  #41  
Old December 22nd, 2010, 08:10 PM
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Re: Wikileaks' Julian Assange - Hero or Villain?

[/quote]
I was generalizing. Because of the leaks, seriously corrupt government officials could be revealed and removed from office. That's just one example.[/quote]

Thats just it, they won't be removed. See Congressman Rangel, they get a slap on the wrist and it gets brushed under the rug. Idealism, vs realism.

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  #42  
Old December 22nd, 2010, 08:32 PM
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Re: Wikileaks' Julian Assange - Hero or Villain?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jschild View Post
Here's what the Pentagon review on the Afghan release said...

Quote:
An ongoing Pentagon review of the massive flood of secret documents made public by the WikiLeaks website has so far found no evidence that the disclosure harmed U.S. national security or endangered American troops in the field, a Pentagon official told NBC News on Monday…

David Lapan, deputy assistant secretary of defense for media operations, told NBC News on Monday that a preliminary review by a Pentagon “assessment” team has so far not identified any documents whose release could damage national security. Moreover, he said, none of the documents reviewed so far carries a classification level above “secret” — the lowest category of intelligence material in terms of sensitivity…

While the team so far has not found any that would meet any of those criteria, Lapan noted that WikiLeaks has yet to publish all the documents it claims to have. Moreover, the Pentagon review has been stymied by the fact that, for at least part of the day Monday, the military team was unable to access WikiLeaks.org — apparently because of the heavy traffic it was receiving. In effect, the Pentagon analysts were unable to read classified government documents that had already been posted and read by the general public around the world.
EDIT: I can say I honestly believe our actions have endangered more lives (both here and in Afghanistan) than Wikileaks ever could.
So he says they've yet to encounter anything that could potentially lead to the harm of "national security" or U.S. troops, but follows that up by saying that they haven't read everything that's been posted? I don't follow.


Here's a serious question.

Everyone is up in arms over the Iraq shooting. I agree it was a sad situation, but I also know that was a hot spot where American soldiers were being killed. So, I can understand the tension that was probably there at the moment when they thought the camera was a rocket launcher. Like I said, it was a terrible situation and I am sure that those soldiers will forever be haunted by the memory of hurting those children and killing those innocent people.

Anyways, to my question.

Do we know anything that took place afterward? Was there any punishment followed up on the officer who ordered the "light em' up" call or the soldiers who actually fired upon the civilians?

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  #43  
Old December 22nd, 2010, 08:39 PM
jschild jschild is offline
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Re: Wikileaks' Julian Assange - Hero or Villain?

Quote:
Do we know anything that took place afterward? Was there any punishment followed up on the officer who ordered the "light em' up" call or the soldiers who actually fired upon the civilians?
No. They were all cleared in the review - however the release of the video directly lead to the arrest of Manning.

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  #44  
Old December 23rd, 2010, 01:30 AM
Rich10 Rich10 is offline
 
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Re: Wikileaks' Julian Assange - Hero or Villain?

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Originally Posted by jschild View Post
Quote:
I don't know what will happen to Assange. I have no idea if the rape charges against him are true or if they are a way of shutting him up. I sure don't think that he's a hero.
Let's use the correct wordage. It's not rape he is being charged with. The sex was entirely consensual. He is charged with sex without a condom. That is the charge. 2 counts of sex without a condom. While that might be a dickish move, it is by no means equal to rape nor should it be listed as such. The bias the media has put forward on this "sexual assault" charge is ludicrous. He should answer to it, and if guilty, pay the fine for it. But let's at least be honest about what it is.

EDIT: Hell, one of the women even bragged about it on twitter before trying to delete it.
I know nothing about the situation. I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt by admitting that this could be a trumped up charge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jschild View Post
I can say I honestly believe our actions have endangered more lives (both here and in Afghanistan) than Wikileaks ever could.
I don't think that's the standard that people should hold themselves to. In my opinion, if one person dies as a result of what Assange does, that's too many.
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  #45  
Old December 23rd, 2010, 04:52 AM
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Re: Wikileaks' Julian Assange - Hero or Villain?

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Originally Posted by CapnRedChops View Post
I think the foriegn policy of the US does far more damage to their ability to conduct diplomacy than any leaked documents.

Besides, governments around the world have been dealing with this sort of problem for hundreds of years - it's just the scale and quality of the proof that's changed with wikileaks. One method they would be using would be 'swamping' - intentionally leaking a lot of misinformation (it's possible that the King Abdullah story is misinformation, it serves the purpose well, by making people question the accuracy of wikileaks, and painting the US in a better light) so that the gems get a bit lost in the sea of crap.

I think Julian will be a hero - if this escalating situation eventually forces the world's media to reform. As has been said before, wikileaks shouldn't exist, but the pathetic state of the media means that they have to.

Also, I want to know what's happening in my world. I fkn live here, my family lives here, I have no where else to go, and there are world ending weapons in the hands of several countries.

I don't care about the fate of nations - I care about the fate my family and friends, of Earth, and of humanity.

I don't think that we can afford to be seduced by the importance of relatively recent artificial constructs designed to consolidate and concentrate power (nations) at this highly dangerous time.

I think we all need to to outgrow the concept that our citizenship of a nation is more important than our citizenship of the planet - and fast.

Having the truth out about what nations are doing in our name is part of this evolution, in my opinion.

CRC
Do you rationally think that the King Abdullah comments were put into US security documents such that if such documents were stolen and posted online that this would be a "misinformation" campaign? If so, you're smoking something that you can't buy legally in the US.

We all want to know what is going on in the world. There is information that we do not have access to because because the release of such information is potentially dangerous to the US. Troop deployments, war strategies, conversations with foreign leaders, ... may be interesting, but they will be even more interesting to others such as North Korea, Iran, terrorist groups, etc.

I don't know what will happen to Assange. I have no idea if the rape charges against him are true or if they are a way of shutting him up. I sure don't think that he's a hero.

You may not care about the fate of nations, but you should. Countries act in their best interests. You might want a "citizenship of the planet", but this isn't going to happen anytime soon. The countries that you mentioned with "world ending weapons" aren't likely to operate according to a world citizenship. Dealing with these countries requires diplomacy and diplomacy requires the ability to keep secrets. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I am guessing that Ahmadinejad and Kim Jong-il aren't working towards being good world citizens.
I said I think it's possible about KA, not certain. Why insult me over it - just because we may (or may not) disagree about this particular point, I must be stoned? That's just sad, mate.

Quote:
The countries that you mentioned with "world ending weapons" aren't likely to operate according to a world citizenship.
Perhaps you're leaving the USA out of your thinking here? I'm not.

Perhaps what it boils down to is whether we think our governments are currently corrupt. If you don't, if you think everything your government does is above board and done in the interests of your country, then in your opinion, there is no need for a media that exposes that corruption, or in it's abscence, wikileaks.

CRC

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  #46  
Old December 23rd, 2010, 09:11 AM
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Re: Wikileaks' Julian Assange - Hero or Villain?

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What's better - knowing, or not knowing? If we know, then we can fix the issues;
What issues? Troop deployment issues? Private banking issues? Was there a problem that I, sitting in my chair in my house, don't get to Monday-morning quarterback troop deployment in Afghanistan?
I was generalizing. Because of the leaks, seriously corrupt government officials could be revealed and removed from office. That's just one example.
Yup. And jschild pointed to some specific examples of instances in which it might be for the best that some documents were revealed.

But I expect a competent government to be conducting diplomacy, by which I mean, smoothing something over with Country A while also making it palatable to Country B, though neither likes the other. It's the difference between partial press Diplomacy and broadcast only Diplomacy, for those familiar with the PBEM version of that excellent board game.

Posting a string of examples of things that arguably should have been released is not an argument in favor of the *bulk* release of *all of it*.

This quote describes the damage done to the diplomatic process:
Quote:
On "Meet," VP says leaked cables have made it "more difficult" to conduct business with allies, "put in jeopardy" the lives of people around the world.
BIDEN: This guy has done things that have damaged and put in jeopardy the lives and occupations of people in other parts of the world. He's made it more difficult for us to conduct our business with our allies and our friends. For example in my meetings, you know I meet with most of these world leaders, there is a desire now to meet with me alone, rather than have staff in the room. It makes these things more cumbersome. And so it has done damage.

Read more: http://thepage.time.com/2010/12/18/b...#ixzz18wa4iSSL
It could have been tailored. Posting horrible stories about woeful things the evil Americans did does not get around that fact.

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  #47  
Old December 23rd, 2010, 09:50 AM
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Re: Wikileaks' Julian Assange - Hero or Villain?

I am in the camp that says that Assange is a villain.

In my estimation, there is a vast difference between information people NEED to know, and information people are not privy to. The information Assange released was not information we are privy to. Originally, if what I have read is true, WikiLeaks focused mainly on China and what they were doing from a humanitarian viewpoint, but switched gears midstream and then focused on the US. I believe the switch was around the time when Bush was president and everyone hated the US.

The information Assange released wasn't information about humanitarian abuses, or the like, or even information which would show vast abuses to light, but basically what diplomat A thinks of diplomat B, or politician A thinks of politician B (in the most generalized sense ever) or classified data in regards to a war which is being fought. Is this information we really need to know? No. We vote for people in office for a reason, and that's what our system is for. There has to be a line drawn in the sand between information people need to know, and what they are not privy to. If there is no differential between the two, the system can be easily abused. An open system is not a free system, just the opposite.

Assange isn't some freedom fighter, just a very angry computer nerd with a chip on his shoulder.

I don't know if you all have heard, but reddit posted his profile on the free dating site OKCupid before they removed it. I did manage to see it before it was removed, and honestly, the profile scared me. In his profile he went into lengths about speaking about his interests in "conspiracy theories" and how world governments affect people, and generally, his profile seemed to be the ramblings of a paranoid man. He also touted his "Nordic" looks and that he was looking for a "casual" relationship. Funny how he was charged with sexual assault recently.

Here's a link to an articles on the matter (the profile)....it wasn't the original one I saw a week or two ago, but I guess it works...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/atlantic/201...pidprofile6166

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  #48  
Old December 23rd, 2010, 10:21 AM
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Re: Wikileaks' Julian Assange - Hero or Villain?

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Originally Posted by CapnRedChops View Post
I said I think it's possible about KA, not certain. Why insult me over it - just because we may (or may not) disagree about this particular point, I must be stoned? That's just sad, mate.CRC
CRC, your premise is that someone in the US government put a random file into a database stating misinformation about King Abdullah on the off chance that someone would steal documents and post them on a website. While I suppose that anything is possible, it seems more than highly remote. I have no reason to think that you are actually smoking drugs and I am sorry if you felt insulted by my statement. I was trying to make a witty response to what I thought was a silly statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnRedChops View Post
Quote:
The countries that you mentioned with "world ending weapons" aren't likely to operate according to a world citizenship.
Perhaps you're leaving the USA out of your thinking here? I'm not.

Perhaps what it boils down to is whether we think our governments are currently corrupt. If you don't, if you think everything your government does is above board and done in the interests of your country, then in your opinion, there is no need for a media that exposes that corruption, or in it's abscence, wikileaks.

CRC
I think that all countries (including the US) operate in their own best interests. Countries whose interests are aligned with the US are our allies. I would be surprised if there is a country on Earth with no corruption. I'm sure that some have more than others. I also recognize that there are countries (and terrorist organizations) that are very interested in classified documents of the US. Why help them? I am also in favor of a free media. A rogue individual who posts stolen documents, seemingly without regard for the consequences of his actions, does not meet my definition of media.
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