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Old March 2nd, 2010, 05:24 PM
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Optimal Numbers for Uncommon Heroes

So, I'm seeing a ton of threads for competitive armies using the new uncommon heroes coming out in the next set. But, I still have a quiet question which sits in the back of my head, what is the optimal number of these units to have in any particular army? Or, is it like any other army and it solely depends on what other units you play? Are these figures better in multiples? Or, should these be treated like unique heroes and have only one per army?

This question comes to me, because I used the theory that two would be optimal at TotalCon in Mansfield Massachusetts recently, and used two Feral Trolls in a tournament. My opinion was that since a number of people would probably play unique heroes, having hero killers would be key. I fully understand that the one defense is pretty crappy, and they are pretty slow, but I banked on the attacks and healing they possessed. Overall though my theory was to hold one back, run the other forward. In other words, one would solely be for cleanup. I was not happy with this, or the results in general with the feral troll. In fact, in the tournament I used just one, he didn't do half as well as I thought he would.

But look at other pieces, the Fen Hydra for instance. I see many people writing army ideas for it, and these armies only run one. Wouldn't two make the most sense? Each has a possibility of four attacks, why not optimize these results?

Or the Wyvern. He can select specific heroes to grab. Why not place two of these in an army? You could easily trick your opponent to allowing one of these to get through with proper placement. Are two of these the trick?

What about the elementals? We won't see the elementalist for months. So, how many should a typical army run to use these to the optimal effectiveness?

So, overall my point is this, is there an optimal number to use in an army? Or, does it truly depend on the person playing them?

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Old March 2nd, 2010, 05:34 PM
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Re: Optimal Numbers for Uncommon Heroes

The problem you run into with uncommons is they aren't as flexible with order markers as commons in most cases. Having more than one is just like having several identical unique heroes.

If any of them are optimal with more than one, I would say the Wyvern probably is with Spiders, because with bonding you eliminate some of the risk of losing turns.

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Old March 2nd, 2010, 05:34 PM
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Re: Optimal Numbers for Uncommon Heroes

I'd say it depends on the uncommon hero. Feral Troll would probably be 1 to 2, depending on maximum points you can have. I'd guess: 0-500 points: 1 Feral Troll:: 600+: 2 Feral Trolls.

For Hydras, probably only ever one. Any more and that's a 240 point chunk of your army, which is pretty big even for 600 point or higher armies. Sauhaughin Raider (feel free to correct that spelling) might do well in three's, since that only 75 points. Maybe even four for 100 points!

Mostly, it's up to the player and the point value. Some people don't care about using large chunks of their army for only two units, some do.

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Old March 2nd, 2010, 05:37 PM
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Re: Optimal Numbers for Uncommon Heroes

To answer your questions in reverse order...

The elementals are Common, not Uncommon, so it makes sense to use multiple, Elementalist or no, for the OM flexability.

The Wyvern makes sense to take 2 of because, as you said, they could be effectively used as decoys for one another, plus they have bonding with the Fyorlag Spiders, so if you spend the points on a squad or two of them you get the chance to activate whichever Wyvern is in the best position, effectively making him a multi-life common hero.

As far as the Hydra and Feral Troll go, they both seem best taken as a single. The Feral Troll seems best suited to a clean-up position, so why spend 180 points to have 2 identical clean-up units? You'd be better off diversifying to minimize their weaknesses The Hydra could be effective twice in an army, but when combined with Kelda I think that it is best utilized alone. Hydras x2+Kelda requires lots of OM gymnastics to use as an effective group. Alternatively you could advance one Hydra and Kelda, then bring out the other Hydra after the first one is killed, but while moving the second Hydra into position Kelda will probably be killed, if she hasn't been already.

Of course those are just my opinions based off my playing style and preferences. Someone else who plays differantly with differant preferences would have differant opinions.

So, overall my point is this, no there is not an optimal number to use in an army. It truly depends on the person playing them.

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Old March 2nd, 2010, 05:44 PM
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Re: Optimal Numbers for Uncommon Heroes

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Originally Posted by Bladethorne View Post
I'd say it depends on the uncommon hero. Feral Troll would probably be 1 to 2, depending on maximum points you can have. I'd guess: 0-500 points: 1 Feral Troll:: 600+: 2 Feral Trolls.

For Hydras, probably only ever one. Any more and that's a 240 point chunk of your army, which is pretty big even for 600 point or higher armies. Sauhaughin Raider (feel free to correct that spelling) might do well in three's, since that only 75 points. Maybe even four for 100 points!

Mostly, it's up to the player and the point value. Some people don't care about using large chunks of their army for only two units, some do.
The Sahuagin Raider is a common hero. Anyways, I agree with what has allready been said.

Feral Troll - 1 to 2 depending on the size of the army.
Hydra - Only one. The 120 point slot for the second is better filled by Kaemon Awa.
Wyvern - 1 without the spiders. 2, maybe 3 with them.
Greater Ice Elemental - Too situational to have more than one.

Note: This list is only for Tourny play Scenarios or Dungeon Crawls are a different story.

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Old March 2nd, 2010, 05:55 PM
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Re: Optimal Numbers for Uncommon Heroes

Well the Elementals and Raider are common heroes, so they're a different issue from the Fen Hydra, Wyvern and Feral Troll. My gut says you usually only want a single uncommon filling a specific role, but that you can make a case for two as a way of mitigating the effect of that "one bad roll" that sometimes makes you rue the investment you made in a unique hero whose ability you lose for the remainder fo the game.

Of the three, the Wyvern is the clear favorite for mulitples at the moment. The Spider synergy offers some intriguing possiblilties:

2xWyvern 200
3xFyorlag Spider 120
KMA 100
Raelin 80
500/17

KMA forces your foe into range of talon grabbing and the Spiders threaten OM removal all under Raelin's aegis.

Next up for multiples is probably the Fen Hydra because it is at its most powerful in the midgame. The trick is getting it into contact with ranged foes.

2xFen Hydra 240
2xPK 140
3xRats 120
500/22

Between them, Rats and PKs should be able to thoroughly gum up a conventional ranged squad's attack. The Hydras deal out the heavy damage.

I'd say the Troll is the hardest figure to employ in multiples since it is primarily an endgame fig and you don't need multiples of those. But how about:

2xFeral Troll 180
2xKoW 140
Saylind 80
Thorgrim 80
Marcu 20
500/15

Lead with Saylind, dropping off the first Troll and Thorgrim in the enemy camp. Run the troll til it's dead, run the KoW with Thorgrim til they're dead - putting the spirit on the final troll and then leading out with it. Sounds like it'd be fun to try at least once.

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ETA *chuckle* Forgot the GIE. Using two of those is gonna be tough.

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Old March 2nd, 2010, 06:35 PM
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Re: Optimal Numbers for Uncommon Heroes

I didn't realize the elementals and raider were common heroes, that is my bad (I'll use the excuse I was too excited to see their abilities that I missed this one point ).

I love the bonding between the spiders and the Wyverns, but my gut is telling me that if one focuses solely on their bonding to move the two Wyverns, and given the spiders crappy defense...in a typical tournament (barring scenarios and dungeons mind you) they would be down on the count very quickly. Against someone running Mass 4th, the Brits, Stingers, etc, they'll be cut down within a couple of turns. Heck, a well placed Q9 could feasibly take out a couple of squads in a turn. To me, I would rather play two Wyverns with some sort of ranged squad, maybe a couple of squads of Stingers or maybe even elves. Run those guys up, then following up with the Wyverns. So, maybe something like this (using 450 points because most tournaments in my area run that point total)...

2x Wyverns (200 points)
4x Stingers (240 points)
Isamu (10 points)

or...

2x Wyverns (200 points)
2x Stingers (120 points)
Kaemon Awa (120 points)
Isamu (10 points)

But with the Hydra, despite it having a cost of 120 points, my gut tells me that running two is best. I understand fully that running two with Kelda is a good 320 points, but on the same token there's a lot of armies who run Kelda, Raelin, Q9 which amongst itself is 340 points. I honestly would run this I think...

2x Hydra (240 points)
Kelda (80 points)
2x Rats (80 points)
Marro Warriors

or...

2x Hydra (240 points)
Kelda (80 points)
3x Rats (120 points)
Isamu (10 points)

I have yet to consider the Ice Elemental...not sure how often I'd play him actually.

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Old March 2nd, 2010, 06:45 PM
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Re: Optimal Numbers for Uncommon Heroes

I agree with most of what has already been said.
  • Feral Troll: 1 for cleanup is generally all you'd want. Given the nature of his powers it's hard to see the benefit of more than one.

  • GIE: One for the cool situational powers. In a really extreme army that has a bunch of chainfighters or something, you could use more than one... just don't expect to win a lot.

  • Wyvern: If played without spiders, one for situational use. If played with spiders, you can make an argument for two in order to take advantage of OM flexibility and offer more durability. I can't see a situation where I'd want more than two.

  • Hydra: the toughest call. If used without Kelda and Ornak, I'd only use one. With Kelda, I think you can make a strong argument for two (or more!), so that you have a better chance of taking advantage of Kelda's healing.

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Old March 2nd, 2010, 06:48 PM
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Re: Optimal Numbers for Uncommon Heroes

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Originally Posted by Mombo101 View Post
I love the bonding between the spiders and the Wyverns, but my gut is telling me that if one focuses solely on their bonding to move the two Wyverns, and given the spiders crappy defense...in a typical tournament (barring scenarios and dungeons mind you) they would be down on the count very quickly. Against someone running Mass 4th, the Brits, Stingers, etc, they'll be cut down within a couple of turns. Heck, a well placed Q9 could feasibly take out a couple of squads in a turn.
Why not just sit a spider way at the back of your start zone, then? That way you have the OM security no matter what. Just draft one or two squads of spiders tops. Use them as order marker security and just go in expecting them to not kill a whole lot, that way if they do kill a couple things you are doing good. One or two squads of spiders plus 2 wyverns is 240/280 points, which leaves you a good amount of room for other stuff.
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Old March 2nd, 2010, 06:55 PM
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Re: Optimal Numbers for Uncommon Heroes

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mombo101 View Post
I love the bonding between the spiders and the Wyverns, but my gut is telling me that if one focuses solely on their bonding to move the two Wyverns, and given the spiders crappy defense...in a typical tournament (barring scenarios and dungeons mind you) they would be down on the count very quickly. Against someone running Mass 4th, the Brits, Stingers, etc, they'll be cut down within a couple of turns. Heck, a well placed Q9 could feasibly take out a couple of squads in a turn.
Why not just sit a spider way at the back of your start zone, then? That way you have the OM security no matter what. Just draft one or two squads of spiders tops. Use them as order marker security and just go in expecting them to not kill a whole lot, that way if they do kill a couple things you are doing good. One or two squads of spiders plus 2 wyverns is 240/280 points, which leaves you a good amount of room for other stuff.
Mostly because I hate turtling, and leaving one behind would bring back bad memories of games which involved people turtling (not necessarily Heroscape games mind you). If you're going to leave a spider behind, why not just put the order marker on the Wyvern itself?

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Old March 2nd, 2010, 07:10 PM
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Re: Optimal Numbers for Uncommon Heroes

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Originally Posted by Mombo101 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlord Alpha View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mombo101 View Post
I love the bonding between the spiders and the Wyverns, but my gut is telling me that if one focuses solely on their bonding to move the two Wyverns, and given the spiders crappy defense...in a typical tournament (barring scenarios and dungeons mind you) they would be down on the count very quickly. Against someone running Mass 4th, the Brits, Stingers, etc, they'll be cut down within a couple of turns. Heck, a well placed Q9 could feasibly take out a couple of squads in a turn.
Why not just sit a spider way at the back of your start zone, then? That way you have the OM security no matter what. Just draft one or two squads of spiders tops. Use them as order marker security and just go in expecting them to not kill a whole lot, that way if they do kill a couple things you are doing good. One or two squads of spiders plus 2 wyverns is 240/280 points, which leaves you a good amount of room for other stuff.
. If you're going to leave a spider behind, why not just put the order marker on the Wyvern itself?
You still have 2-5 other spiders out there to use, and you might have more than one Wyvern. Like I said, that one spider is there just incase all your other spiders get destroyed somehow. This way, your order markers that are still on the spiders aren't wasted, as you can still use your wyvern(s), and you won't have to resort to juggling order markers between multiple wyverns (if you still have more than one left).
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Old March 2nd, 2010, 07:10 PM
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Re: Optimal Numbers for Uncommon Heroes

I don't have too much new to add.
  • Feral Troll: His clean-up role makes him not all that useful in multiples, and he's got some deep vulnerabilities, but you might be able to make a case for two with Ornak. Not a good case, mind you. At least both trolls would heal.
  • Greater Ice Elemental: I can't ever see wanting more than one right now, unless some more figures are released that boost elementals of a larger size. As has already been noted, he's about as survivable as Agent Carr (slightly more with the ice healing, but not much more). Spikes are good to mess with melee, but I've a hard time thinking another would be very good.
  • Wyvern: Because of bonding, these are probably the best argument for multiples. Still not convinced they're really worth it, given their powers, but having two with spiders makes them basically like common heroes.
  • Hydra: Actually, I do think there's an argument to be made here for multiples. As dok noted, having two means that Kelda is more likely to get her value back. Also, Ornak can double-bond with them on Order Marker #1. 8 attacks of 4 in one turn? Sure. (The main problem is that 340-point tag...)
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