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  #13  
Old April 29th, 2015, 12:16 PM
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Re: Card Draw

Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
You're right about Thanos and Finn and the rest, but here it falls into a gray area.
This is actually much less of a gray area than those other units, because here it all happens immediately, right in the same sentence. "Destroy, then roll...." The intended clarification is such a weirdly unnecessary phrase that it makes left-brained people have to try to figure out what it "really means."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
why couldn't you use after attacking powers without attacking?
Why couldn't you use "after revealing an order marker" powers without revealing an order marker?

Why couldn't you use "after rolling defense dice" powers without rolling defense dice?

Why couldn't you use "after taking a turn" powers without taking a turn?

See how illogical it all sounds?

Do you really want the rules team to have to create a new rule that says "'after attacking' doesn't require attacking if there are no other words with it, but 'after attacking' does require attacking if it says something like 'after attacking a hero' ... and 'after' doing anything other than moving or attacking always means you actually do have to do that thing"? Yuck.

And think about the design constraint this imposes. If a designer actually does want to require attacking, how would they do that? They would have to add extra noise words to circumvent the illogical patch rule that "after attacking" doesn't really mean "after attacking." (If they remember the patch rule exists.)

These questions are avoided altogether if the card simply says "after taking a turn," like Silver Surfer does. If that was the intent! (I tend to believe the intent was to require attacking. Otherwise, why on earth write it that way?)


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  #14  
Old April 29th, 2015, 12:16 PM
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Re: The Book of Zettian Deathwings

The way the card is worded, after attacking you may move 3 spaces. If you do not attack, the power does not trigger. Just my interpretation.

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  #15  
Old April 29th, 2015, 12:36 PM
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Re: The Book of Zettian Deathwings

@Scytale should have an answer for you guys.

EDIT: Both of them have to do with EMP response, at least as far as I can tell. Destroying the figure first is so that if EMP response activates, the figure is still destroyed. Having the movement take place during the turn makes it so that if EMP response activates, they can't use the ability. Still not sure if they can use it without attacking, though.

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  #16  
Old April 29th, 2015, 01:08 PM
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Re: The Book of Zettian Deathwings

The short answer to all these questions is that EMP response presented some unique challenges for this card.

We will look at it internally and decide whether there's a smoother way to handle some of these things. For the time being, you may want to hold off on printing this one out.
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  #17  
Old April 29th, 2015, 03:20 PM
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Re: The Book of Zettian Deathwings

Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
Destroying the figure first is so that if EMP response activates, the figure is still destroyed. Having the movement take place during the turn makes it so that if EMP response activates, they can't use the ability. Still not sure if they can use it without attacking, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
The short answer to all these questions is that EMP response presented some unique challenges for this card.
Ah, now it all comes into focus. Thanks for the explanation, guys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
We will look at it internally and decide whether there's a smoother way to handle some of these things.
The detonation seems to work fine w.r.t. EMP Reponse, even if you delete the puzzling "clarification." I just cannot imagine that anyone would actually argue that the sentence "Destroy the attacking Zettian Deathwing, then roll 5 attack dice for all affected figures" literally dies at the comma when it's your very last ZD.

However, if you like you could use the word "to" to enforce an ironclad causal relationship between the destruction and the die rolling. This would bind the boom and the roll together syntactically, while also making good story sense.

Here are my recommendations for consideration. The blue italicized text is a toggle switch: leave it in if you want attacking to be optional, or delete it if you want attacking to be mandatory. (Obviously the latter is cleaner, if you can live with mandatory attacks.) Either way, the suggestions below should prevent hyper-bursting with any ZDs that were not conceptually one of the two chosen for this turn's activation, while making the extra move part of the current turn so that it is clearly canceled when EMP Response aborts that turn.
DETONATION SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 5.
A Zettian Deathwing that moved but did not attack normally may use Detonation Special Attack. Any figures adjacent to the attacking Zettian Deathwing are affected by Detonation Special Attack. Destroy the attacking Zettian Deathwing to roll 5 attack dice for all affected figures, even if all Deathwings have been destroyed. Each figure rolls defense dice separately.

HYPER SPEED BURST 3
Just before Zettian Deathwings end their turn normally, each Zettian Deathwing that moved and/or attacked may move up to 3 spaces.
[or]
After all Zettian Deathwings finish moving normally and attacking, each Zettian Deathwing that moved and/or attacked may move up to 3 spaces.


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Last edited by Just_a_Bill; April 29th, 2015 at 03:37 PM.
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  #18  
Old April 29th, 2015, 07:43 PM
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Re: Card Draw

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_a_Bill View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
You're right about Thanos and Finn and the rest, but here it falls into a gray area.
This is actually much less of a gray area than those other units, because here it all happens immediately, right in the same sentence. "Destroy, then roll...." The intended clarification is such a weirdly unnecessary phrase that it makes left-brained people have to try to figure out what it "really means."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
why couldn't you use after attacking powers without attacking?
Why couldn't you use "after revealing an order marker" powers without revealing an order marker?

Why couldn't you use "after rolling defense dice" powers without rolling defense dice?

Why couldn't you use "after taking a turn" powers without taking a turn?

See how illogical it all sounds?

Do you really want the rules team to have to create a new rule that says "'after attacking' doesn't require attacking if there are no other words with it, but 'after attacking' does require attacking if it says something like 'after attacking a hero' ... and 'after' doing anything other than moving or attacking always means you actually do have to do that thing"? Yuck.

And think about the design constraint this imposes. If a designer actually does want to require attacking, how would they do that? They would have to add extra noise words to circumvent the illogical patch rule that "after attacking" doesn't really mean "after attacking." (If they remember the patch rule exists.)

These questions are avoided altogether if the card simply says "after taking a turn," like Silver Surfer does. If that was the intent! (I tend to believe the intent was to require attacking. Otherwise, why on earth write it that way?)
Well, I am leaning a bit towards Dysole's question here, haven't we already decided for something like KMS's toxic skin ("after attacking, roll the d20 blah blah blah") is activated/rolled even when KMS doesn't attack? Based on that, I'd say these guys get to move the +3 "after attacking" even if they don't attack... Am I missing something?
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  #19  
Old April 29th, 2015, 11:19 PM
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Re: The Book of Zettian Deathwings

I love the Hyper Speed Burst 3!!! It's an interesting concept because if you can make a kill you can make it out of there.

I not sure what it is, but these guys are some of my favorite CV3 creations! Thanks a ton guys

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  #20  
Old May 1st, 2015, 07:07 AM
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Re: The Book of Zettian Deathwings

Just to let you know: your C3V Rules Team is carefully considering the points everyone brought up here. We'll let you know as soon as we have an answer for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vasel
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  #21  
Old May 1st, 2015, 01:15 PM
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Re: The Book of Zettian Deathwings

JaB, can you use an "after moving" power without moving? Yes, you can. Same story here. Figures have their turns in two phases: move phase, attack phase. "After attacking" just means it comes after the attack phase. No, that's not the official rules terminology.


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  #22  
Old May 1st, 2015, 02:26 PM
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Re: The Book of Zettian Deathwings

After careful consideration of KMS and the fact that they are Commons and you're only supposed to move the ones you took a turn with, "after attacking" makes sense. Plus the point about the Repulsors is a really good one when considering the wording on their powers. Repuslors make everything wonky.

My biggest problem is the 4 powers, but that's just a personal gripe for me. Can't wait to try them out! Bombs away!

~TAF
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  #23  
Old May 1st, 2015, 02:31 PM
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Re: The Book of Zettian Deathwings

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAverageFan View Post
After careful consideration of KMS and the fact that they are Commons and you're only supposed to move the ones you took a turn with, "after attacking" makes sense. Plus the point about the Repulsors is a really good one when considering the wording on their powers. Repuslors make everything wonky.

My biggest problem is the 4 powers, but that's just a personal gripe for me. Can't wait to try them out! Bombs away!

~TAF
Cough*Sonya*cough.

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  #24  
Old May 1st, 2015, 02:40 PM
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Re: The Book of Zettian Deathwings

The other reason other than Sonya we felt comfortable with 4 powers on this card is that 2 are pre-existing standard powers (Flying and Evasive) and another one (Hyper Speed Burst) is simple (supposedly). They all are necessary for this design.

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