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  #37  
Old September 27th, 2010, 10:15 AM
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Re: dok's battle reports

Nice report, dok. I'm glad to see a report with this strategy. Ever since I did the Army Auction tournament in May, I got to thinking that some sort of draft format where you can pick from your opponent's figures is the way that Heroscape tournaments should be.

Seriously - bringing an army and using it the entire day isn't how Heroscape should be played. The Draft is a HUGE element to the game to even out the figures, and that's what should be used. If I could change one thing in Heroscape, it would be to change the GenCon Main Event to a format like this.

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  #38  
Old September 27th, 2010, 10:26 AM
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Re: dok's battle reports

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
Again, I really can't emphasize enough what a cool format this is, and I strongly recommend that other areas try something similar.
Yep, I'm chomping at the bit for the event scheduled in November out here in the northeast that will be using a version of this format (if not this exact one).

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  #39  
Old September 27th, 2010, 10:52 AM
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Re: dok's battle reports

Excellent battle report & I hope we can implement something similar at one of our own area tourneys.

I'm glad I'm not going to Colorado events because reading all your X-0 scores makes me hope they have nice prizes for 2d place.

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  #40  
Old September 27th, 2010, 11:03 AM
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Re: dok's battle reports

Nice report. It makes me look forward to our event in November even more.

I think Scapemage has two minor changes in the rules. First, at ours you cannot draft all of the commons at once (you do have a lock on them but you have to use a draft pick for each card that you want). Second, there is no option to pass.

Dok (or others that were there), what differences do you think these rule changes might have made? Good or bad? My preference is for the draft lock rather than being able to pick as many squads as you like in one go, partly because I want someone to be able to counterdraft effectively against rats x4 or 10th Foot x5 or whatever but mainly because that's how we used to play when we drafted and it worked. For the pass option I don't have an opinion either way.
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  #41  
Old September 27th, 2010, 11:53 AM
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Re: dok's battle reports

Quote:
Originally Posted by killercactus View Post
Nice report, dok. I'm glad to see a report with this strategy. Ever since I did the Army Auction tournament in May, I got to thinking that some sort of draft format where you can pick from your opponent's figures is the way that Heroscape tournaments should be.

Seriously - bringing an army and using it the entire day isn't how Heroscape should be played. The Draft is a HUGE element to the game to even out the figures, and that's what should be used.
I've gotta agree. Just to pick the most recent example - both of us have posted somewhat lukewarm reactions to the Frost Giant of Mohr in the pre-release discussion thread. It's not that it's a bad figure - it's not - it's just that it's very hard to think of a situation where I'd want the FGoM in my army all day in a double-blind tournament environment, when I could have the Hydra or Krug or Eltahale in stead.

From that line of thinking, you can take the "Devil's_Advocate" tack, and declare the FGoM non-competitive. At that point, though, it's fair to ask whether it's the figure itself that makes the figure not tournament-worthy, or whether it's the tournament format that makes the figure not tournament-worthy. I think what we're both saying/realizing is that the latter is closer to the truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by killercactus View Post
If I could change one thing in Heroscape, it would be to change the GenCon Main Event to a format like this.
Wow, that would be amazing. That's obviously not going to happen very soon. I've been lobbying hard for a pooled draft event at GenCon in the "what do you want to see next year?" thread, as you know. The more we spread the word about how awesome this format is, the more likely that Mark, et al, are willing to take the plunge and try to make it work at GenCon. Those guys do a similar sort of event down in Texas, although the way your draft pool gets put together there, combined with the simpler drafting rules, leads to more hodgepodgey armies. The Bay area also tried out a format like this, but again, the lack of any freeze-out option meant the armies still ended up being pretty hodge-podgey. (They also added a restriction on "A" figures, which seems totally unnecessary in a format like this.)

GenCon does have some unique constraints that could make it a challenge, but I believe it could work there.
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  #42  
Old September 27th, 2010, 12:11 PM
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Re: dok's battle reports

Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie View Post
Nice report. It makes me look forward to our event in November even more.

I think Scapemage has two minor changes in the rules. First, at ours you cannot draft all of the commons at once (you do have a lock on them but you have to use a draft pick for each card that you want). Second, there is no option to pass.
There is one more difference that's arguably significant - your rules clear the second copy of a unique from the draft pool. I had one draft where there were two wardens and one draft where there were two Otonashis. In those drafts, you knew you could get those figures at the end because they were doubled up. In your version, only one person (at most) gets to play those figures.

In my opinion, clearing the second unique is a bad idea. The only argument in favor of it seems to be aesthetic; i.e. it's cool that unique figures will always be unique on the battlefield. However, it makes the draft process more luck-dependent. If both people bring Raelins, I say let them both play Raelin. (It's not like this doesn't happen all the time in regular tournaments.) There's also the (small) chance that you could end up with a really cutthroat draft and very unbalanced teams if two people bring very similar, unique-heavy draft pools, leading to extremely limited drafting options at the end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie View Post
Dok (or others that were there), what differences do you think these rule changes might have made? Good or bad? My preference is for the draft lock rather than being able to pick as many squads as you like in one go, partly because I want someone to be able to counterdraft effectively against rats x4 or 10th Foot x5 or whatever but mainly because that's how we used to play when we drafted and it worked.
This is definitely the big question. In my opinion, having one of these rules or the other is absolutely crucial - it's what keeps draft events from being hodgepodge events.

The "draft the stack" approach definitely makes commons stronger, because I'm not conceding the next four draft choices the moment I reach for the black wyrmlings (or the next 10 draft choices if I reach for the Fire Elementals). The "freeze out" approach is a bit milder, because it does concede those draft choices, but it protects you from (some) denial drafting. You can still steal a lot of synergy away, though.

Personally, I prefer to shift the overall feel of gameplay as little as possible from the more standard tournament structure. Standard tournaments feature lots of synergy in armies and lots of multiples of commons. I see no compelling reason to change that - the rest of the features of the pooled draft do more than enough to shake up the metagame dominance of the top figures. So I prefer the "draft the stack" approach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie View Post
For the pass option I don't have an opinion either way.
To my knowledge, nobody ever passed. It's a rare situation where you would want to pass. I never considered it personally. The pass option could probably be left off the rules without anyone really noticing or caring. I think it's a nice option to add for the rare situations where both players are trying to get the other one to commit the bulk of his/her points before they counter-draft... but it's hardly crucial.
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  #43  
Old September 27th, 2010, 12:19 PM
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Re: dok's battle reports

I wonder how this format treats the newer/younger players. One thing I *like* about HeroScape tourneys is that an 11 year old with a good army that he put together & playtested himself can come get 2d place at Clan's last tournament. Not that I have a particular 11 year old in mind, after all, he was only 10 at the time.

Anyway I'm wondering, dok, whether the advantage this format gives to those who have a more encyclopedic and nuanced familiarity with the units might remove the puncher's chance that players get in more traditional formats.

Not saying it's a good thing or a bad thing. Just wondering...

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  #44  
Old September 27th, 2010, 12:39 PM
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Re: dok's battle reports

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaddyScaper View Post
I wonder how this format treats the newer/younger players. One thing I *like* about HeroScape tourneys is that an 11 year old with a good army that he put together & playtested himself can come get 2d place at Clan's last tournament. Not that I have a particular 11 year old in mind, after all, he was only 10 at the time.

Anyway I'm wondering, dok, whether the advantage this format gives to those who have a more encyclopedic and nuanced familiarity with the units might remove the puncher's chance that players get in more traditional formats.

Not saying it's a good thing or a bad thing. Just wondering...
Good point, DaddyScaper. In order to really excel in this format, you have to either know how to play with a variety of figures really well, or be able to figure it out on the fly. Of course, in a standard tournament format you need to be able to play against everything, so there's always been an advantage to knowing all the figures well. But yes, it gets amped up in this format.

As you sort-of imply, though, this can simply be seen as another aspect of skill - i.e. a truly great player should be able to use all figures well.

Another way to look at this is that it's part of the fun - you get the opportunity to use figures you don't own. The most fun game for me on Saturday was probably the game where I played the Mohicans for the first time, because I had to figure out how to use them on the fly. (The only annoying moment was when I realized that the Mohican I thought was engaged to a repulsor was actually Brave Arrow, so I only had one engaged Mohican and I wouldn't be able to use War Cry.)
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  #45  
Old September 27th, 2010, 12:41 PM
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Re: dok's battle reports

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
This is definitely the big question. In my opinion, having one of these rules or the other is absolutely crucial - it's what keeps draft events from being hodgepodge events.
I think also the "you can draft up to 2 cards worth with no freeze" variant would work fine, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok

Personally, I prefer to shift the overall feel of gameplay as little as possible from the more standard tournament structure. Standard tournaments feature lots of synergy in armies and lots of multiples of commons. I see no compelling reason to change that - the rest of the features of the pooled draft do more than enough to shake up the metagame dominance of the top figures. So I prefer the "draft the stack" approach.
I think I slightly disagree here. I'm OK with removing *some* of the synergy, only because it makes figures like the Frost Giant or Sharwin Wildborn (who don't really have synergy) more viable draft choices because the player drafting them doesn't have to worry about getting the unit that synergizes later. Plus, in a snake draft, you're getting 2 picks in a row anyway which will help a "synergy nut" get the units they need.

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  #46  
Old September 27th, 2010, 12:50 PM
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Re: dok's battle reports

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
As you sort-of imply, though, this can simply be seen as another aspect of skill - i.e. a truly great player should be able to use all figures well.
Very interesting. I have a hunch that KidScaper, who as a smart, game-playing 5th grader is probably a good representative of that portion of the WotC target audience, would have a mild but not overwhelming preference for building his own army.

The more I think about it, the more concerned I am that this format is kid & novice unfriendly. But I've never played in an event like this and I would really like to hear about how players like that have fared in pooled-draft events.

And, as I said earlier, if I'm right it would be a feature without necessarily being a drawback.

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  #47  
Old September 27th, 2010, 12:51 PM
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Re: dok's battle reports

I'm going to respond to killercactus in the pooled draft thread, just so that this (very interesting) discussion is easier to find later.
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  #48  
Old October 8th, 2010, 02:08 PM
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Re: dok's battle reports

I realized I have some incomplete notes lying around from a couple events this summer that I never put up as battle reports. It's a bit too late now, I think, but just so that I have all my records listed somewhere in cyberspace, here's what I do have:

Enchanted Grounds game day (570, bring two armies, must alternate their usage)

G1: Beat Austin (Armocsx2, Venocsx2, EOV, Mittens, Fen Hydra, Isamu) with 4thx5+Cap on Jotun's gap.
G2: Beat cmgames (Nilfheim, Gilbert, KoWx3, TVW, Marcu... I think?) with Q9, Raelin, zombiesx4, Marro Warriors, Marcu on Rift Valley.
G3/G4: beat Seth A and Generalrolondo with those same two armies. Their armies and the maps played are lost to the sands of time.

GenCon prep (two games played at 510, one game played at each upgrade level)

My army was my GenCon army (Q9/Rae/ratsx3/FH)

G1: chief (4thx4 + Charos) on Warden
G2: Seth A (Raelin, Zelrig, Fen Hydra, Zombiesx2) on Fossil
G3: Generalrolondo (TEIx2, Syvarris, Krug, Isamu + Moriko), I added AE+Isamu, on Fissure
G4: kpucblek (KoWx3, Finn, Denrick, Templar Cav, +Raelin + Isamu), I added Krav, on Just Passing Through
G5: Daniel (ABFx2, Migol, Airborne, Q10 + Tul-Bak-Ra), I added Kelda+Marro Warriors+Isamu, on Rift Valley
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