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  #2701  
Old October 24th, 2022, 11:56 AM
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Re: Heroscape: Age of Annihilation is here! Back it on Hasla

My understanding is that the Bonny in AoA *is* Anne Bonny; just with equipment upgrades after years on Valhalla (which is a Heroscape trope; see Sgt. Drake's Katana, Grapple Arm, etc.). My understanding could be wrong.

With that said I do hope we see a Pirate common squad soon, along with other more Historical-looking figures.

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Last edited by caps; October 24th, 2022 at 11:57 AM. Reason: Should be pretty easy to swallow any "cultural consultant" fees once the project has been backed and new sets are in the work
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  #2702  
Old October 24th, 2022, 12:05 PM
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Re: Heroscape: Age of Annihilation is here! Back it on Hasla

See, that's what Encarmine implied about "Pirate Captain Bonny" (as she was identified in the concept art) at some point, but her actual card identifies her specifically as Fia Bonny, which demarcates her as a different character (unless Fia has some meaning I'm not aware of; I'm assuming it's a first name here, but it could be some obscure term with a different meaning). You're right that it would make perfect sense to include Anne Bonny and give her various fantasy/sci-fi upgrades ala Sgt. Drake or Valguard, but I don't think that's what is going on with Fia Bonny, judging by the different first name.

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  #2703  
Old October 24th, 2022, 12:16 PM
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Re: Heroscape: Age of Annihilation is here! Back it on Hasla

The main thing with historical units as a possibility in future expansions is to really work with outside organizations in the future to make sure you're giving representation to cultures that deserve it and not shining a pseudo positive light onto negative/bad armies/governments/dictators of the past.

For example, I think it would've been awesome to see a common squad based on a mix of the Dora Milaje from Black Panther and Dahomey Amazons from The Woman King.

Edit: but then again, reading the wiki of the Dahomey..... Maybe having historical units is legitimately a very hard thing to pull off nowadays. I can see having more of a steampunk pirate look kind of distances from certain aspects could be similar to the Dora Milaje are kind of an advanced Dahomey.

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  #2704  
Old October 24th, 2022, 12:52 PM
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Re: Heroscape: Age of Annihilation is here! Back it on Hasla

I don't think any historical unit should be off limits based on them having done bad things. Considering pretty much every human army or warrior culture that has ever existed has done bad things. You just have to accept that humans are bad and often do bad things. If you can't accept that, then you can't have any historic units, which would be a damn shame. And sadly it seems to be the route they are going.
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  #2705  
Old October 24th, 2022, 12:55 PM
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Re: Heroscape: Age of Annihilation is here! Back it on Hasla

The thing is, I agree with most of what's been said about why historical units generally might be more difficult to include nowadays. It would be difficult to include Indigenous units in the game now, for instance, though not impossible by any means; the recently-released (and quite good) Prey, for which the staff hired a predominantly Comanche cast and worked with Comanche cultural organizations and consultants, demonstrates this. Including Indigenous units, however, would require an undertaking of the sort that Avalon Hill (understandably) would feel much more comfortable doing after the Age of Annihilation set gets fully backed and released. I get all of that.

None of that, however, is responsive to the specific point I was trying to raise in my post. What I'm getting at, specifically, is that it seems to me that there's a historical figure in the form of Anne Bonny that Avalon Hill could have included even considering the constraints the team is working under and its desire to be respectful of other cultures, as no social or political group that I am aware of would be upset by her inclusion. Instead, Avalon Hill included a sci-fi pirate whose name simply nods to Bonny despite the fact Anne Bonny would seemingly (from my admittedly limited understanding of the history involved) be an easy historical unit to add in a set that barely has any, and I'm trying to wrap my head around why this is the case. Is there some controversy surrounding Anne Bonny that I'm not aware of? Who would be upset by her inclusion?

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  #2706  
Old October 24th, 2022, 01:03 PM
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Re: Heroscape: Age of Annihilation is here! Back it on Hasla

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Originally Posted by Novelist432 View Post
I don't think any historical unit should be off limits based on them having done bad things. Considering pretty much every human army or warrior culture that has ever existed has done bad things. You just have to accept that humans are bad and often do bad things. If you can't accept that, then you can't have any historic units, which would be a damn shame. And sadly it seems to be the route they are going.
The perspective today is a lot different than it was in 2004. I’m not implying that’s positive or negative but definitely different. I think there is an acknowledging that humans behave poorly but the current climate is to more accurately reflect on history and not gloss over or even glorify the bad.

There’s been a lot of push back on games that feature colonization as a mechanic or objective for this same reason, so like it or not, it’s a real thing that needs to be considered now and navigating it is not easy for game publishers. It often feels like not only can you not please everyone, but sometimes you can’t please anyone.
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  #2707  
Old October 24th, 2022, 01:04 PM
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Re: Heroscape: Age of Annihilation is here! Back it on Hasla

I guess they just felt like doing interesting name takes versus a direct one. You can compare this to Retiarius, which is actually just a general name of net using gladiators and not a specific person and Spartacus. Also with C3V, Arthur of Sherwood, which is a take on Robin Hood and Heracles, though those are both mythical figures, but in a more historical sense over a fantasy sense. The space pirates I guess you could maybe think of as historical in a future sense.....oxymoron I know lol

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  #2708  
Old October 24th, 2022, 01:11 PM
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Re: Heroscape: Age of Annihilation is here! Back it on Hasla

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Originally Posted by boromir96 View Post
Chris Nadeau yes. He is the Senior Director, and Product Development Lead for Avalon Hill. He is in charge of every game they make. Should they only make games he has nostalgia for?
Of course not. What they should do is have the person in charge defer in some respects to others who are more knowledgeable, so that you avoid situations where the former says, "Hey, what if we replaced the skulls on the dice with swords or an explosion symbol?" only for the latter to remind them, "Umm... a lot of the old cards, not to mention the cards we're working on right now, literally refer to skulls on the dice." Basically, some of these decisions might be better off left to the kind of person who can recite the Flying text from memory, y'know?
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  #2709  
Old October 24th, 2022, 01:14 PM
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Re: Heroscape: Age of Annihilation is here! Back it on Hasla

By and large I'm fine with including historical units. There should be cultural consultants to ensure accuracy in their portrayal, but overall I think the topic is a bit too moralized. I don't think any developer should have to live in fear of being cancelled because of a creative choice they made, but these are the times we live in.
There are certainly some obvious figures to not include. Nonetheless it's possible to include figures that aren't as controversial, and Heroscape has mostly done that in the past.
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  #2710  
Old October 24th, 2022, 01:17 PM
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Re: Heroscape: Age of Annihilation is here! Back it on Hasla

I think having an homage name rather than a direct name is a reasonable path for historical figures. I think the biggest thing about historical figures isn't the name, it's the aesthetic. Translating Bonny into a steampunk sci-fi pirate doesn't really meet the historical "aesthetic," which is why she's not scanning as "historical" to folks.

In other news, if they make the Penguin with a machine gun an unlockable stretch goal for hitting 4,000 backers, I'd back today. They need to start doing some stuff like that to get some energy back in this campaign. It's flagging right now and they don't need to just "wait and see".

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  #2711  
Old October 24th, 2022, 01:23 PM
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Re: Heroscape: Age of Annihilation is here! Back it on Hasla

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Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
I think having an homage name rather than a direct name is a reasonable path for historical figures. I think the biggest thing about historical figures isn't the name, it's the aesthetic. Translating Bonny into a steampunk sci-fi pirate doesn't really meet the historical "aesthetic," which is why she's not scanning as "historical" to folks.

In other news, if they make the Penguin with a machine gun an unlockable stretch goal for hitting 4,000 backers, I'd back today. They need to start doing some stuff like that to get some energy back in this campaign. It's flagging right now and they don't need to just "wait and see".
Yeah, I feel most of the other Haslabs unlocked something extra by the halfway point to entice people, and though it's great they did it, just changing the page layout and a brief app mention is not enough to do any major increase in sales.

They really need to do something major to get to 4,000 orders before the last three days to really seem like there's a decent chance.

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  #2712  
Old October 24th, 2022, 01:25 PM
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Re: Heroscape: Age of Annihilation is here! Back it on Hasla

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Originally Posted by brak88 View Post
I guess they just felt like doing interesting name takes versus a direct one. You can compare this to Retiarius, which is actually just a general name of net using gladiators and not a specific person and Spartacus. Also with C3V, Arthur of Sherwood, which is a take on Robin Hood and Heracles, though those are both mythical figures, but in a more historical sense over a fantasy sense. The space pirates I guess you could maybe think of as historical in a future sense.....oxymoron I know lol
I don't think the historic units need to be actual historic figures, and I don't think it ever was that way. Sir Denrick, Marcus Decimus Gallus, Kato Katsuro weren't real people, but they aligned with real tropes.

I understand what they're going for with this set being the years after the war starts and how groups have settled into valhalla. but still, I think a bunch of actual history/fantasy swashbuckling pirates would have gone a long way for the historic units crowd vs high tech pirates. similarly, if that is the theme of the set, I think more things like marro pirates, roman gladiators who have snagged a chaingun at some point, or elves and gruts who realized they aren't so different and blended into one army could have been a more interesting approach vs using a bunch of factions we've never seen before.

I don't dislike the new factions though and think there is some interesting material there. On their own, robot lich is awesome. steampunk redwall is great. I think they fit right in with the style of heroscape. but I think it's suffering because there is a lot of new stuff and not as much tying it back to the old game for being a campaign that seems to be totally relying on nostalgia buyers. FWIW, I haven't backed yet but I am planning to closer to the end of the campaign.
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