Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread

[UtahScott]

We need a couple things from the 3D printing CAD designers, once AoA's released:
1) a modified pillar so walls can attach at a 60-degree V,
2) pillar with a 120-degree turn like FotA,
3) maybe one with 3 120-degree faces so walls can go off in all three directions along the tile faces.
EDIT: And riddle me this, if long walls/pillars go 90-degrees across the tiles the wrong way, how many hexes would it take until a pillar aligns back onto a hex?


Also, a vertical hook & wall "S-clip", in 1- and 2- level high formats, so the Laur castle builds can stay linked, yet rise and fall over uneven terrain, just like FotA's full-length pillar/hextile slots. Correspondingly, 1- and 2- high "wall foundation" bricks that fill a wall's base gap if one end's higher and there's no hex on either adjacent side of the wall to support it.

[Vydar_XLIII]

Originally Posted by UtahScott

We need a couple things from the 3D printing CAD designers, once AoA's released: a modified pillar so walls can attach at a 60-degree V, pillar with a 120-degree turn like FotA, maybe one with 3 120-degree faces so walls can go off in all three directions along the tile faces.

Also, a vertical hook & wall "S-clip", in 1- and 2- level high formats, so the Laur castle builds can stay linked, yet rise and fall over uneven terrain, just like FotA's full-length pillar/hextile slots. Correspondingly, 1- and 2- high "wall foundation" bricks that fill a wall's base gap if one end's higher and there's no hex on either adjacent side of the wall to support it.

*Flexes fingers*

That seems doable.

[UtahScott]

Originally Posted by Vydar_XLIII

*Flexes fingers*

That seems doable.

Oh, yeah, and an entirely new HexScape / LandScape program that will model the Laur walls. THEN the map community can go nuts. Unless it's doable in TTS right now.

[UtahScott]

I'll stop gong off-topic, because I didn't know @Vydar_XLIII has been inspired to go back & work on this project here...

[superfrog]

Origin by Flash_19



This is a good map. My favorite 1x RotV map I’ve ever played on. I’ll focus this review on the center of the map but it is worth noting that the sides (except for those pointless water tiles) routinely see a lot of play as well.

My favorite thing about the center is the ruin placement. They are far enough away from the start zone to be useful, but also far enough from the action that hiding to pop out from behind them is limited in its effectiveness. The height distribution through the center is also good, encouraging forward and sideways movement.

The ruin and the 3-hex water in front of the start zone do kinda make you pick a side, and that kinda matters, but the middle is wonderfully open and dynamic in a way that leaves lots of decisions to each different stage of development. I almost decided to but a blurb in here suggesting double ruin, but I couldn’t decide whether double big ruin or double small ruin made more sense, so safe to say it’s quite workable even with the ruin difference.

to induct.

Would also be interested in seeing Origin: Jungle Edition potentially at some point…

Trollsford Road by heroscaper2010



First off: wow. This is a lot of map to stretch out of 1x SotM. Underrated trick to use the Hive base as terrain.

I also really like the aesthetic of this map, feels very much like a winding swamp road.

In the submission, Trollsford Road was described as an inverse of Remain of Clionesia, which I think is relatively accurate. But in general, I don’t think that leads to good gameplay. Most of the game takes place in and around the road, which is level 2 with a few level 1 stretches as well. And with 2 RttFF sets, there’s a lot of said road.

The problem that I have is that the only good way to move across the board laterally is to take the road. But single-wide roads are easily congestible, and dropping down to level 0 for a treasure glyph just never is worth it. As a result, the gameplay on TR tends toward single-file road running or clumping around one of the level 3 perches.

There are other commendable things about Trollsford Road: the jungle is placed well, the trees are placed well, the road design is thoughtful. But I think lower lateral mobility, podding potential, and speed humps spell doom for this map.

to induct.

The Borogoves by Typhon2222



The Borogoves is a classic, with a family tree that includes several of my own maps (The Jabberwock and Wingspan) and a few of Typhon’s as well (Mome Raths and Mime Raths).

But I have two main complaints that I’m never able to shake about the map:

First is an odd one perhaps, but I do not like the level 3. On each side of the map, the level 3 is a “snake”, i.e. it is a single hex wide for its entire length. What this means for gameplay is that level 2 is less desirable (since there’s lots of level 3), but then level 3 has no good counters. Too often Borogoves games boil down to running your units 1 at a time down the snake to see what happens.

Of course, there’s the shadow/jungle pit, but that is too far away from the edges to really interact with them in any meaningful way.

Second is related to the first: the glyph area is super chokey. With outcrop next to glyph next to tree, you can’t move forward across any of those hexes. This really widens the map in a bad way, since units will filter into discrete spaces. The problem with that is that no figure will be incentivized to move since they’re unlikely to be able to make profitable attacks.

to induct.

[1Mmirg]

Originally Posted by superfrog

Origin by Flash_19



This is a good map. My favorite 1x RotV map I’ve ever played on. I’ll focus this review on the center of the map but it is worth noting that the sides (except for those pointless water tiles) routinely see a lot of play as well.

My favorite thing about the center is the ruin placement. They are far enough away from the start zone to be useful, but also far enough from the action that hiding to pop out from behind them is limited in its effectiveness. The height distribution through the center is also good, encouraging forward and sideways movement.

The ruin and the 3-hex water in front of the start zone do kinda make you pick a side, and that kinda matters, but the middle is wonderfully open and dynamic in a way that leaves lots of decisions to each different stage of development. I almost decided to but a blurb in here suggesting double ruin, but I couldn’t decide whether double big ruin or double small ruin made more sense, so safe to say it’s quite workable even with the ruin difference.

to induct.

Would also be interested in seeing Origin: Jungle Edition potentially at some point…

We have also been enjoying playing on Origin. While there are some his/hers high points, the inevitable slight differences in the two ruins, divisive water points, and some congested center areas (which happens any time the ruins are placed near elevation changes), this map overcomes all of that with its dynamic, active play.

This feels like an open, run for cover, grab momentary height, shift your strategy, sneak around the wall, snag a glyph, pull back, shift your strategy again, duck behind a ruin, get in your opponent's face, pray for victory kind of map that inspires both storytelling and great game play.


I will admit that for a long time I felt like RotV only maps were just ones we needed to use because there is only so much terrain and we need 6 maps for our tourney. Origin changes that. I would choose to play on this map even if other terrain-rich maps were available.

Yes, I don't like the way melee can get chewed up, but as superfrog mentioned, the ruins on this map are well placed to offer some good cover.



(I'll note that I actually like the water trails on the outside, both for just having a bit more space to move around the glyphs and because I appreciate a map that offers some continuous water for those poor sad slither units that get to use their power so rarely.)

All of that is to say I vote YEA on Origin.

[Vydar_XLIII]

Originally Posted by 1Mmirg

We have also been enjoying playing on Origin.

1Mmirg is Venom, confirmed!

[Flash_19]

Trollsford Road by Heroscaper2010


Spoiler alert - my thoughts will be very similar to superfrog's thoughts on this map, including his nod to the aesthetics of the map. It does look really good on the table.

Unfortunately, the map has some issues with gameplay. I found the lateral movement across the map just as troublesome as superfrog, even when my units were boosted by the movement glyph. There are just too many spots where a figure can easily clog up a major passage. For a map with so much road being used, I would hope to see much more fluid movement throughout the map. Battles also tended to be very predictable in terms of locations of conflict.

I also think the jungle pieces are used well, and I like the placement of most of the LOS blockers.

I vote to induct.


Wingspan by Superfrog


First off, Wingspan looks fantastic - it's aesthetics definitely catch your attention on the table.

An important disclaimer: after a couple games on the map, Superfrog and I worked through an alternate version that addresses some of the issues both OEAO and I had with the map. I mention that because my recent experience with the map has been influenced by the belief that there is a better version. That knowledge combined with the issues I've noticed have formed the basis for my opinion.

The most commented on issue with Wingspan is the level 3 double hex so close to the start zone. While the space isn't too problematic in terms of gameplay from my experience, it's proximity to the start zone makes it a gimme in terms of decision making as OEAO pointed out. And it is often one of the central areas of conflict.

The height distribution in general does create some issues (again, credit to OEAO for his in depth discussion of this issue in his review). In every game I've played on the map - each player stacks their level 3 seven-hex, and their level 3 double hex, making the gameplay feel more predictable and stale. In some matchups this can be more problematic for the reasons described by OEAO - it turns into a game of who leaves their hill first. While getting to the opponent's hill isn't the problem necessarily (due to the very melee-friendly shadow /jungle combo), once the figure gets to the opponent's side of the board, they don't have as much protection, and it can be more difficult to overtake opponents. These observations are likely the explanation for why the level four height was rarely used in any of my games on the map. The highest height often didn't have enough draw to convince players to leave their level 3 height closer to their start zone.

I enjoy the map, but for me it falls just short of what I'd want to see in WoS. It's close though, and I hope to see an updated version.

[Sir Heroscape]

Got a couple maps I'd like to submit after some tournament showings they've recently made.

Terranova
Sets: BftU, VW, Marvel, TJ

Midwest Melee II (October)
Utah Monthly (September)


Lightfoot
Sets: RotV, TJ X2

Midwest Melee II (October)
Utah Monthly (September)

[OEAO]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

Got a couple maps I'd like to submit after some tournament showings they've recently made.

Terranova
Sets: BftU, VW, Marvel, TJ

Midwest Melee II (October)
Utah Monthly (September)


Lightfoot
Sets: RotV, TJ X2

Midwest Melee II (October)
Utah Monthly (September)

Given how new these maps are, I'd really like to see some feedback over in the Tournament Map Feedback Thread from people who have played on these maps first.

[Flash_19]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

Got a couple maps I'd like to submit after some tournament showings they've recently made.

Terranova
Sets: BftU, VW, Marvel, TJ

Midwest Melee II (October)
Utah Monthly (September)


Lightfoot
Sets: RotV, TJ X2

Midwest Melee II (October)
Utah Monthly (September)

I played on both of these maps at the last Utah tournament and am ready to pass verdict on both. These will be quick responses so feel free to reach out for more clarification if you'd like it when I have a little more time.

Lightfoot - this map actually got lots of complaints at the tournament for the same reasons I didn't like it. Jungle covering so much level 3 in the middle was apparently pretty significant in lots of games in a negative way (honestly, I would say that you should just generally try to avoid jungle covering level 3), and the center is not very easy to move through.

Terranova - I struggle with any map that has lava field tiles a level below height that is not lava field. And honestly, I feel like that's a deal breaker for me - height is enough of an advantage, you don't need the additional threat of death for units attacking up on height hoping for an initiative switch (happened in my game). This one is closer than Lightfoot in my opinion, but it definitely pulls left, and the center is a little more difficult to navigate then I'd like because of the level 2 lava field tile combined with the single hexes on level 4 in the center. These created a really difficult situation in my game on the map (more so when trying to come from your left to the opponent's right).

I vote on both submissions.

[OEAO]

Lightfoot and Terranova: I'll join Flash on his reviews here. Just eyeballing both maps and without having played either, I agree with all his points. (FWIW, I wasn't aware that he had played them when I initially posted today.)

More importantly, I think 1.5 months after posting a map is way too early for a WoS nomination. The purpose of WoS isn't to be a proving ground for new maps; rather, its purpose is to recognize great maps. A nomination just 1.5 months after posting, and after 2 local tournaments taking place only two weeks apart, pretty clearly violates at least my interpretation of our goal here.

WoS status should be a marathon, not a sprint. Give it time. Let the maps grow. Take feedback from people who have played on them, and iterate to create the best maps possible.

I'd be fine reviewing updated versions of these in the future. But for now, I'll vote NO to induct.