[Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - AotV Testing

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Scytale

The problem is in interactions with powers like Knockback, which happen "immediately." Knockback in particular has nasty, complicated interactions with triggered powers, so I don't want to create a whole new set of rulings for Blink.

That makes sense. I was moreso referring to it potentially being confusing that Shift occurs immediately, but Blink (which uses Shift) still does not. In any case, I think that the distinction won't cause significant enough trouble for new players to be worth adding many new rulings for (which would probably be more difficult for everyone in the long run).

So we just need to strike out immediately from the OP, NecroBlade, whenever you get a chance. It looks like the OP also has "from an opponent's figure" as a clause to trigger Blink, but I don't think that addition should cause any problems? If it's easy to keep it, then I think that we should to avoid another Deathreavers situation.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Astroking112

It looks like the OP also has "from an opponent's figure" as a clause to trigger Blink, but I don't think that addition should cause any problems? If it's easy to keep it, then I think that we should to avoid another Deathreavers situation.

That should be fine.

[Astroking112]

Perfect. These should be the new powers in the OP, then:

SHIFT
After moving normally, you may immediately place a Velnesh Alpha on any empty space within 2 spaces of its current placement. Velnesh Alphas will not take leaving engagement attacks while Shifting.

BLINK
After a Velnesh Alpha rolls defense dice against a normal attack from an opponent's figure and is not destroyed, it may move using its Shift special power.

[Astroking112]

I ran two games with the Velnesh today. Thanks to a strange turn of events, I only had access to a random assortment of figures, the AotP boxes, and lots of Grok Riders, so I made due with what I had.

CUSTOM MAP:

Spoiler Alert!

440 Points
No Glyphs
Dawn: 3x Grok Riders, Me-Burq-Sa
Astro: Raelin (SotM), Deathwalker 8000, 1x Microcorp Troopers, Velnesh Alphas

GAME SUMMARY:

Spoiler Alert!

Dawn led with Me-Burq-Sa, overextending him a bit. I was able to capitalize on this by sacrificing Raelin (she had sustained heavy wounds in the first turn thanks to the small map and me underestimating the chances) in exchange for MBS and a Grok. It then became more or less a slugfest of Velnesh against the Groks, with the Velnesh holding their own for a long time before finally whiffing on defense. Blink helped a lot in them surviving for longer by denying attacks to other Groks.

I also threw a few turns on DW8k once two Velnesh were down (I was trying to compensate for giving Dawn Groks by having a mishmash army ), but he whiffed every single attack. The Microcorp were pretty much useless after whiffing on defense twice. Eventually, the Groks' numbers won out and the Velnesh couldn't keep up.

SURVIVING UNITS:
4x Grok Riders
~170 Points Left

POWER USAGE:
Shift and Blink were used almost every turn. The Velnesh wouldn't have survived as long without teleporting out of extra engagements with Blink, and Shift was used to escape unfavorable engagements and grab height on the others. Both powers were super fun and useful.

Total Damage Dealt: 3x Grok Riders ("130 Points")
Remember these are Groks. 130 is on the high end as far as estimates go.

THOUGHTS:
They felt pretty fair and balanced. They can be terrifying when the dice go their way, but 4 defense ensures that they'll whiff often enough that it'll hurt. I'll write up the other game I ran with these guys later, but I'm content with sending them on at this point.

[NecroBlade]

Added that last playtest to the OP.

[Skinderella]

Quoting this because it was a duel playtest. Thoughts on the Velnesh are in the last paragraph.

Originally Posted by Skinderella

Map: Ruined City
Glyphs: Ulaniva, Dagmar (unused)

Army 1: Shaolin Monks x3, Master Lao Xin, Yi Feng (430 points)
Army 2: Ozuul, Velnesh Alphas, Raelin, Eldgrim, Isamu (400 points)

Versions used:
Ozuul

Spoiler Alert!

The Book of Ozuul[/SIZE][/B]

Arena of the Valkyrie Master Set

VALKRILL
OZUUL
Species Voidspawn
Unique Hero
Class Marauder
Personality Nihilistic
SIZE HEIGHT Huge 10

LIFE 8
MOVE 5 / BASIC 5
RANGE 1 / BASIC 1
ATTACK 6 / BASIC 7
DEFENSE 4 / BASIC 8

190 POINTS

GRAVITY PULL
After moving and before attacking, Ozuul may use Gravity Pull. One at a time, each non-adjacent small or medium figure within 2 clear sight spaces of Ozuul must be placed by its owner on any empty space adjacent to Ozuul, if possible. Figures moved with Gravity Pull do not take any leaving engagement attacks, but non-flying figures will take any falling damage that may apply. After using Gravity Pull, Ozuul must use Crushing Vortex Special Attack.

CRUSHING VORTEX SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 4.
All figures adjacent to Ozuul are affected by Crushing Vortex Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Each figure rolls defense dice separately.

Velnesh Alphas

Spoiler Alert!

The Book of Velnesh Alphas[/SIZE][/B]

Arena of the Valkyrie Master Set

VYDAR
VELNESH ALPHAS
Velnesh
Unique Squad
Class Experiments
Personality Menacing
SIZE HEIGHT Medium 5

LIFE 1 (3 figures)
MOVE 4 / BASIC 5
RANGE 1 / BASIC 1
ATTACK 4 / BASIC 4
DEFENSE 4 / BASIC 4

90 POINTS

SHIFT
After moving normally, you may immediately place a Velnesh Alpha on any empty space within 2 spaces of its current placement. Velnesh Alphas will not take leaving engagement attacks while Shifting.

BLINK
After a Velnesh Alpha rolls defense dice against a normal attack from an opponent's figure and is not destroyed, it may immediately move using its Shift special power.

Which units survived?
Master Lao Xin with 2 wounds.

Turn by turn brief

Spoiler Alert!

Round 1
Monks and Yi Feng move forward towards the road. Eldgrim overextends to take the glyph the monks are heading towards, revealing Ulaniva. More Shaolin Monks move in and spread out a bit, but one moves to Eldgrim and inflicts 1 wound. Lao Xin moves onto the road. Ozuul moves onto the road and adjacent to the ruined building. More monks move up, another to Eldgrim and destroy him. Spirit on Ozuul. Yi Feng moves around pillars. Ozuul, with Eldgrim’s help, moves into a position to pull 4 Shaolin, killing all 4.

Round 2
Shaolin move onto Ulaniva and attack Ozuul, inflicting a wound. Yi Feng then moves in, inflicting another 2 wounds onto Ozuul. Ozuul then Crushing Vortexes, killing two more Shaolin and dealing 1 wound to Yi Feng. Yi Feng gains high ground and deals a wound to Ozuul, whilst Lao Xin comes in but fails to wound. Raelin moves into range of Ozuul. Yi Feng and Lao Xin attack Ozuul, collectively dealing 3 wounds. Ozuul attack Yi Feng normally and deals 1 wound.

Round 3
Ozuul starts the round attacking and killing Yi Feng. Lao Xin moves to the high ground but still failing to wound Ozuul. The remaining monks crowd Ozuul other than the one on Ulaniva, killing him. Raelin moves back to the Velnesh. Monks move forward slightly, Lao Xin stays put. 2 Velnesh move and shift onto the high ground near the other glyph, whilst the third moves and shifts next to a Shaolin but failing to wound. Monks move adjacent to the stray Velnesh and kill it. Lao Xin moves next to the remaining Monks.

Round 4
Monks move in and inflict 1 wound to Raelin, whilst missing a Velnesh blinks but stays put. Lao Xin moves next to Raelin and inflicts another wound. Raelin attacks Lao Xin but fails to wound. Monks attack Raelin and is destroyed. A Velnesh is also attacked but succeeds and blinks away down the high ground. The remaining Velnesh close in on the master, with one moving around a monk and then shifting to where Raelin once was, but failing to deal any wounds to him. Monks fail to kill a Velnesh, but Lao Xin finish one of them off. The final Velnesh moves up to where the other Velnesh once was and attacks Lao Xin, dealing no wounds.

Round 5
The Velnesh swings at Lao Xin again, dealing a wound. Lao Xin retaliates by killing the last Velnesh. Shaolin move onto Isamu but he vanishes. Isamu goes to Lao Xin but fails to wound. Lao swings back but Isamu vanishes. Monks move onto Isamu but he vanishes again. Isamu moves along the road towards the opposing team’s start zone. Monks chase him and the one on the glyph moves in to attack. Isamu fails his vanish but succeeds in blocking the attack.

Round 6
Isamu kills the monk that’s on him. Lao Xin moves around, and the monks move in on Isamu but once again vanishes. Isamu kills another monk. Monk attacks Isamu, failing vanish but succeeding the block again. Lao Xin moves onto high ground near Isamu. Isamu kills the remaining monk. With just Lao Xin and Isamu left, he goes in to attack Isamu, who again vanishes towards Ulaniva.

Round 7
Lao Xin moves to Isamu and rolls all shields, but because of Master’s Strike Isamu still vanishes. Isamu attacks but deals no wounds. Lao Xin rolls no skulls again, Isamu vanishes yet again. Isamu deals no wounds. Isamu vanishes Lao Xin’s attack again. Isamu deals 1 wound.

Round 8
Lao Xin rolls full skulls and Isamu fails a vanish, killing him.

How useful were playtesting units' powers and how often did they come into play?
As a disclaimer, I was wrong on my math for the Shaolin team, for some reason I had the three squads jotted down as 70 points each instead of 80, and only realised upon putting this together. Sorry

Ozuul was pretty strong this game, killing 6 Shaolin and Yi Feng for a total of 220 points. Despite having just one game with him, he’s obviously very powerful against armies that like to group up. The extra move, whilst only used once, got him into a great position to immediately crush 4 monks, and was certainly nice to have that option. It wasn’t game claiming, but it certainly was an intimidating start for the monks to lose almost half their forces round 1. He has the ability to be a decent hero killer too with his 6 attack.

I need to give him another test as from this game alone I could see him being at this point range or even a bit lower. Against squads the matchup can fall either way very quickly, but compared to dragons who have ranged abilities that can also deal with squads, far better mobility and various things to bond with, he seems to be a bit lacking. He does have more health granted, and I’d need to test him more to see if this was a good match up or whether he can more reliably create these set ups. Being able to pull figures off of high ground without a roll is a pretty powerful ability though. And playtests from others have supported that he’s in this sort of price range. I do feel like the enemy team was very much a good match up for him, and against a lot of enemies I don't think he'll perform quite as well.

As for the Velnesh, I felt like they underperformed a bit. I had played another game with them prior to this but they all died to some Ravagers before being able to attack anything. They’re a very compelling and fun unit though, their shifts are incredibly good at closing gaps and suddenly getting on top of ranged figures. They dealt a single wound to Master Lao Xin and that was most of their achievements this game. Their blinks activated a few times and was quite effective at nullifying other Shaolins’ attacks. I need some more games with these guys because I feel like I may not have played them correctly. I’ll emphasise the point that they’re a very fun squad though, and on maps with more terrain and elevations they will be more powerful.

[Astroking112]

Here's the other game that I had run with these guys back on 1/7/2021:

CUSTOM MAP:

Spoiler Alert!

~400 Points
Glyphs: Knowledge, Recall, Healing
Astro: Velnesh Alphas, Masha Shingai, Tagawa Samurai Archers x3 (395)
Dawn: 4x Marro Stingers, Major Q10 (390)

GAME SUMMARY:
I kind of derped out a bit in building these armies--my original intention was to give Dawn something worse than Major Q10 to round out her army and myself Raelin since TSA + Raelin + Masha isn't unplayable. Unfortunately, after a series of mistakes, neither of those were true and one army was clearly superior to the other.

That said, the game ended up being surprisingly close. I led with Masha and the TSA, setting up a pod on the nearby height. Dawn anticipated this of course, leading with Major Q10 who was unhindered by Masha. Unfortunately, the Velnesh Alphas couldn't quite bridge the water in front of my starting zone to get within range of Q10 on a second OM, so I circled around with the TSA, taking potshots at Q10 (getting lucky and dealing 1 wound) and then shooting down on her starting zone. The next round saw an initiative switch, and Q10 moved even closer, killing two of the Velnesh Alphas with his Machine Pistol Special Attack (the other one blocked the initial attack, then Blinked a little closer to get within reach for my next OM). Dawn directed the final attack at Masha, dealing 2 damage to bring him up to a total of 3 wounds.

I then revealed my OM1 on the Velnesh, having expected more of them to not whiff. Left with little other choice, I ran the Velnesh Alpha up, Shifted across the water to get to Q10, and attacked up at him with reckless abandon. I rolled 3 skulls, and Dawn rolled 0 shields on six dice, killing Q10 nearly instantly. The stingers finished off that Velnesh the next turn, but the damage was done.

I then claimed the Glyph of Healing with a TSA, giving Masha a pitiful +1 life while Dawn got to bring back another Stinger (at this point, she still had a full 3 squads). They finished off Masha anyway the next turn, and then started annihilating the TSA. Eventually, it got down to one TSA in my starting zone against 8 stingers. He made a valiant effort, abusing his 6 range as much as possible by forcing the Stingers to get into water and give him height to get close enough to attack, but he was only able to take down 3 Stingers before being outnumbered.

SURVIVING UNITS:
5 Marro Stingers
~100 Points Left

POWER USAGE:
Blink and Shift were each used exactly once this game. In theory, the Velnesh were my answer to Q10, but two of them whiffing against his pistols resulted in them getting crippled very early on. Still, by dumb luck the last one managed to deal 3 wounds to Q10 from a height disadvantage, earning back their points and then some. This was critical because otherwise Q10 would've wrecked the rest of my army, too.

Total Damage Dealt: 3 wounds to Q10, ~120 Points

THOUGHTS:
The Velnesh both underperformed and overperformed in this game--in theory, they should've done much better if they had survived the initial barrage, but the last one also had a pretty lucky strike up at Q10 that was instrumental in closing the gap between our armies. They're somewhat high variance against ranged figures; they're really reliant on their 4 defense to hold out, but it it does, they can deal a lot of damage. It reminds me of the Ninjas of the Northern Wind, albeit the Ninja's D20 and 3 defense is generally better at the cost of being more expensive and having less control over changes in elevation/crossing water for 20 more points. I think that the comparison to them is fair, and even if this unit underperforms in some games, it's in a pretty good place overall.

If we want to run more tests with these guys (after re-reviewing the tests linked in the OP, I think that a couple of more tests wouldn't hurt), I think that they should be against primarily melee units. The Velnesh are considerably better when they can get the first strike, and we've more or less established that they're a bit higher variance against range where some might die to the initial volley. Seeing them in their ideal environment (against B-tier melee armies) would paint a more complete picture of their effectiveness at 90 points.

[NecroBlade]

Velnesh were included in these tests, though only really used in 2 of them. They averaged 117 points in those games, or 59 if you include doing nothing twice. I honestly don't think we need more tests and that the Velnesh Alphas are ready to call complete. They have shown that their reliance on their defense instead of a special defensive power can let them down, but also that their solid stats can stand up to solid opponents. They've also gotten a response of "fun!" pretty much from the beginning and the whole way through.

I'll make sure all the tests are in the OP and see if there's any more discussion. But I would expect a vote soon.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by NecroBlade

Velnesh were included in these tests, though only really used in 2 of them. They averaged 117 points in those games, or 59 if you include doing nothing twice. I honestly don't think we need more tests and that the Velnesh Alphas are ready to call complete. They have shown that their reliance on their defense instead of a special defensive power can let them down, but also that their solid stats can stand up to solid opponents. They've also gotten a response of "fun!" pretty much from the beginning and the whole way through.

I'll make sure all the tests are in the OP and see if there's any more discussion. But I would expect a vote soon.

I disagree that they're ready for a vote at this point after having reviewed the games again. I think that they're close, but we should do our due diligence in making sure that the drop to 90 was fine first. It's only 10 points, but that can make or break a lot of builds. I'm frankly concerned at the builds that we've been running Velnesh in; for context, here's a quick stats breakdown:

1: Velnesh + Honor Guards/Sharpshooters vs. Mariedians
2: Velnesh + Honor Guards/Sharpshooters vs. Mariedians
*3: Velnesh + Unique Hodgepodge vs. Wolves of Badru:
4: Velnesh + Varkaanans vs. Mariedians
*5: Velnesh Hodgepodge vs. Stingers + Ozuul Hodgepodge (game not completed, speculated that they would've killed over their points if so)
*6: Unique Hodgepodge vs. Zombies
*7: Velnesh + 12th Caucasus vs. Hodgepodge
*8: Unique Hodgepodge vs. Unique Hodgepodge (Including 4 AotV units)
*9: Velnesh + Greenscales vs. Yokai
10: Velnesh + Gorillinators vs. Romans
11: Hodgepodge vs. Grok Riders (killed "over" their points by technicality because they killed 3 Groks)
*12: Ozuul Hodgepodge vs. Monks
13: TSA vs. Stingers/Q10 (technically this one included Masha, an unfinalized unit, too, but that held them back more than anything else and I've played ~30 tests with him alone)
*14: AotV Hodgepodge vs. Unique Hodgepodge (including 5 AotV Units)
*15: AotV Hodgepodge vs. Unique Hodgepodge (including 5 AotV Units; never needed to use the Velnesh)
*16: AotV Hodgepodge vs. Romans (including 4 AotV Units)
*17: AotV Hodgepodge vs. Romans (including 4 AotV Units)

Key to the above:
* = Contained 2+ Units in a Volatile Playtesting State. Some contained as many as 5 unfinalized units, which I don't think is a good enough baseline.
RED = Played against a younger player or the game did not progress far enough to where the Velnesh were really used, sometimes because their army won without needing to use them (so them "not filling their points" is highly misleading in some of these cases).
BOLD = They filled over their points (sometimes close to 200).

Of these tests, only six do not include multiple conflicting playtesting units (not counting Masha to be generous). Of those, the Velnesh filled over their points in four games. Overall, eleven of these seventeen tests have been featuring various hodgepodge armies; that's typically the sort of thing that I'd expect to see from the next stage (Compatibility Testing), once we're comfortable with these guys in a more "traditional" setting. A few are fine, but considering how many of these are already AotV hodgepodges, I'm not comfortable with moving them on yet.

I highly recommend reading back through the playtest reports when you have a chance. They're very informative, but I do not think we are ready to "finalize" the unit yet, especially since they only recently dropped to 90 points. I think that they are very close, but I want to run a few more games with no other playtesting units in situations that they'll excel in. Please humor me and wait for trying to start a vote until I or someone else has a chance to put them through their paces just a little bit more. I get that it sucks to wait for longer and that nothing might change, but I want to ensure that everything is at the highest level of quality that it can possibly be.

[NecroBlade]

You're right that the playtesting so far hasn't been all the latest version. So yes, more tests are great. I do think they haven't changed so much that any tests aren't valid, though. I also don't think it's necessary to play every test against competitive armies. Some, yes, obviously we're not trying to establish a new meta. But ultimately the majority of Heroscape isn't played 500 point blind build. We could maybe stand to sprinkle in fewer "compatibility" tests at this stage, sure.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by NecroBlade

You're right that the playtesting so far hasn't been all the latest version. So yes, more tests are great. I do think they haven't changed so much that any tests aren't valid, though. I also don't think it's necessary to play every test against competitive armies. Some, yes, obviously we're not trying to establish a new meta. But ultimately the majority of Heroscape isn't played 500 point blind build. We could maybe stand to sprinkle in fewer "compatibility" tests at this stage, sure.

To be clear, I'm not saying that any of these tests are invalid or anything (I think that they're all valuable and have good things to learn from reading them). I would just vote nay to proceed right now since the primary focus of this stage should be on testing these guys specifically, and we have Compatibility Testing next (which should be a relatively quick stop IMO, especially with how much testing we've already done).

[flameslayer93]

I'd think a couple more tests should be suffiecient (provided they don't use playtesting units @ astro's request). Each time I've played them, the velnesh have felt more and more "at home" in Valhalla.


Note: I also played them in an all AotV game here last year, but it should be noted that this game was intended to help get the AotV project exposure than anything else.