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  #85  
Old July 1st, 2015, 01:47 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

I think what we are running up against in the mutablity of beliefs.

In one extreem we have the secularist, with their ablity to shift with devolpements in science, understanding and ethics. These were the first people who adopted new positions such as abolishing salvery or a helocentric veiw of the solar system.

In the middle is progressive relgion. I think the current Pope is a good example. As we make new discovers and re-evaluate our own morality change comes, hence the current catholic stance on Climate change.

On the other end is the (virtually) imutable fundamentalist. Change comes slowly, if at all. Normally this is where the word of God is law, regardless of evidence. I may think that believing the earth is only 6000 years old is crazy but to a fundamentalist I'm just as crazy for turning my back on the literal word of god.

Some thing should be immutable (murder is wrong, the earth is round, knowledge is good, etc.) Other things should progress (11 year olds should not get married, newton's theory of gravity gets replaced by Einstien's, etc). The rub is trying to accept which things should change, which are irrelevent, and which things should stay the same.

I think it is less about what you are discussing, but what drives the beliefs that dictate the side you take. Understand the source and you will understand the arguement. Change can only come from the source.


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  #86  
Old July 1st, 2015, 01:54 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

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Interesting how you compare homosexuality to pedophilia and to promiscuity. Hmm. In your opinion, what's the difference between them? What's so special about homosexuality that it gets the same zero-tolerance treatment? Or is it that all of God's Word must be observed absolutely, and equally?
I compared them to pedophilia and promiscuity because I actually have friends who have attractions that way. I could have as easily compared it to adultery, sex before marriage or any number of other ways to express sexuality which don't match up with God's Word. And yes counselor, homosexual sexual relations are on the list of means of sexual expression which don't line up with God's Word. By your statements, you seem to want that to be some special case in my mind, but it simply isn't.

If a homosexual friend engages in a sexual relationship with a partner, I see it as analogous to a heterosexual friend sleeping with multiple partners. I chastise neither.

~Aldin, who does stand on God's Word absolutely while wondering if that means to him what it means to someone else
I genuinely didn't know how you would respond. I wasn't trying to trap you. To my eyes, a pair of consenting adults in the privacy of the bedroom is one thing; an adult with a child in that same bedroom, engaged in the same activity, is quite different.

Well, I asked, I have your answer.

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  #87  
Old July 1st, 2015, 03:25 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

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Really? Because my understanding is that regardless if you are a rapist or murderer if you accept Jesus as your savior and confess your sins, you go to Heaven. If you live a relatively sin-lite life but do not accept Jesus you go to Hell.
What is the grading system for sin?
Two different topics. One is how sin is ultimately judged by God. The other is how we live in the world under governmental authority. Folks shouldn't judge other folks for sinning - that's God's job. Folks can and should try to have good laws and live by them.

~Aldin, trying for clarity
If sin is to only be judged by God then why does any Christian judge any person's sin?
If we are talking governmental authority then the law says gays can marry.
Back to how does other people's sins affect your soul. You reference Sadom and Gamora. Do you believe Americans will be turned into pillars of salt because gay marriage is legal?
If you are turned into salt for these reasons will your soul go to Hell?
You believe souls have gone to Hell solely based on the sins of others?

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  #88  
Old July 1st, 2015, 04:08 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

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If sin is to only be judged by God then why does any Christian judge any person's sin?
If we are talking governmental authority then the law says gays can marry.
Back to how does other people's sins affect your soul. You reference Sadom and Gamora. Do you believe Americans will be turned into pillars of salt because gay marriage is legal?
If you are turned into salt for these reasons will your soul go to Hell?
You believe souls have gone to Hell solely based on the sins of others?
I'm starting to get the impression that you haven't been following this thread particularly closely:

If sin is to only be judged by God then why does any Christian judge any person's sin?

They shouldn't. James 4:11b-12 "When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?" (NIV)

If we are talking governmental authority then the law says gays can marry.

Sure. That's not quite right, but it's close enough. A month ago, the Federal government had not interpreted existing law as affirming the right of people to marry others of the same gender. Now it has.

Back to how does other people's sins affect your soul.

Only in that being surrounded by people making poor decisions makes it easier for us to make poor decisions. At least, I think you meant that to be a question. It's sorta phrased as a question, so I kinda ignored the period at the end.

You reference Sadom and Gamora.

I didn't, actually.

Do you believe Americans will be turned into pillars of salt because gay marriage is legal?

Nope.

If you are turned into salt for these reasons will your soul go to Hell?

So, theoretically, if I was turned into a pillar of salt because gay marriage is legal would my soul go to hell? Ummm... you know, I honestly have no idea how to answer that. Let's just say that I don't think turning into a pillar of salt would have any effect one way or another on my eternal disposition.

You believe souls have gone to Hell solely based on the sins of others?

Now THAT is a fascinating theological question. But I am 99% sure that your focus in asking it has nothing to do with my fascination. I think you want to know if I think someone can go to hell because Joe next door slept with his wife's best friend. The answer to that question is no.

I'm having so much fun responding to these though that I want to go the extra mile here. Christian theology states that all mankind has a sin nature we inherit due to the original sin of Adam. One can therefore theorize that had Adam not sinned, no one would go to hell. Also, redemption is assigned and not earned. So any soul which goes to heaven does so solely based on the sinlessness of another. If Jesus had sinned, everyone would go to hell. Given the reciprocity there, I think that at least with regard to Adam the answer is yes.

~Aldin, point by point

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  #89  
Old July 1st, 2015, 05:20 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

I appreciate the responses, I always enjoy these exchanges. You have yet to fail to sway my thinking in some way on past discussions and I am grateful for that.
You are making less headway here although I find your Adam response quite impressive.
Thank you.

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  #90  
Old July 1st, 2015, 05:47 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

Speaking of Adam, was he the first caveman with their low intelligence and look, or was he higher on the IQ tree than cavemen and look like he's depicted in paintings? Something I've always wondered, and my buddy and I have discussed and wondered at work.

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  #91  
Old July 1st, 2015, 05:53 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

Here is another one. What race was Adam?
How did all the other races come to be?
EDIT: Actually I think we discussed this before. I do have a follow up question.

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  #92  
Old July 1st, 2015, 09:41 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

Here's an interesting article, called "Gay marriage: A sad day for America?"

This is an interesting part of that article as it relates how religion was used as a reason to maintain segregation in churches.

Quote:
The sentiments expressed by those who morally disagree with the court's decision also reminded me of an old copy of Time magazine that I bought a few years back. It was the Oct. 6, 1958 issue and featured an article entitled, "Integration and the Churches." The article's focus was a press conference called by then Arkansas' Governor Orval E. Faubus to discuss the issue of segregation and how the church should respond to the fact that African-Americans were gaining political ground in this country. Schools were being desegregated. "Now our churches?"


Among those in attendance were ministers from a multitude of faith traditions. Catholic priests stood beside Episcopal and Methodist bishops. Presbyterian pastors stood shoulder to shoulder with staunchly conservative Baptists. One minister in particular caught the attention of the reporter who wrote the article. His comments echo what I've read and heard from many these past couple of days.

"This statement is not made with any enmity or hatred in our hearts for the Negro race," said Rev. M.L. Moser Jr. of Little Rock, Arkansas. "We have an abiding love for all people…We believe that the best interests of all races are served by segregation. We resent the implication by certain liberal ministers that it is un-Christian to oppose integration. We believe that integration is contrary to the will of God…is based on a false theory of the universal brotherhood of man. We believe that integration is not only un-Christian, but that it violates all sound sociological principles and is not supported by Scripture or by biological facts."

80 ministers signed the statement.

It's difficult to imagine that just 57 years ago, a press conference was called to discuss why we should not desegregate our nation's churches. And as is the case with marriage equality, Holy Writ was the only grounds on which they had to defend their position.


Also, I had seen another article about a Baptist minister in Tennessee who owned a hardware store and after the Supreme Court ruling, he posted a sign in the front window of his store that said, "No Gays Allowed." The next day he switched it for one that said, "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone who would violate our freedom of speech and freedom of religion."

What I find interesting is that this is all based on the Supreme Court ruling to allow gays to be legally married. This Baptist minister and others like him don't like homosexuals, based on their religious beliefs, but what about other sins that go against their religious beliefs? If their religious convictions were so strong regarding sin and not wanting to serve sinners, why is the sin of homosexuality the only one they targeted?

Same with that pizza place in Indiana a few months ago that was not wanting to serve gays. This was right after our Governor made it legal to discriminate against the LGBT community because of religion. Though it was shortly changed due to the uproar and unwanted attention brought upon our state. But back to the pizza place. Why have a sign only about not wanting to serve gays? It's against their religious beliefs because it's a sin? But what about all the other sins? This pizza place and the hardware store in Tennessee are fine serving all other sinners, just not homosexuals it seems.

Then when there is uproar against this, those people and others cry that their religious freedoms are being taken away etc. But to me, it was only their practice of discrimination via religion that was being challenged.

I get that a lot of people are uncomfortable with homosexuals and anything related to them. I mean, I don't really want to see dudes making out all over the place, but then again, I don't really want to see male/females making out all over the place either.

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  #93  
Old July 1st, 2015, 10:49 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

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OK first off this is my opinion so if it offends anyone, sorry, Im not trying to.

First off, I am very against this passing. Yes part of it is religious reasoning, but what other people do moraly is between them and God. The main thing I have against this is the biological side of it.

Homosexuals can not reproduce and continue on the human race. To my knowledge there is no species that naturally is homosexual while physically being bisexual. It just doesn't work that way. I'm sorry if you're not attracted to the opposite sex. It's not natural not to be.

Marriage has originally been a union to raise a family within that has gained the other legal benifits. It should always be between a man and a women only.

Against the argument of equality, it has been proven that the ideal situation for a child to be raised is with a mother and a father. If a child lacks one of those, he/she is being hurt. How is that fair for that child while others have a father and mother. Marriage should be kept between a man and a women. If two guys or two girls want to have a relationship and whatever, that's between them. But the marriage status should be kept between a man and a women.

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  #94  
Old July 1st, 2015, 10:58 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

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I do not support them passing it, and I know that although the people are not evil, homosexuality is wrong. Say what ever you will against me, but I will hold my ground!
Might I inquire, though?

From a strictly religious point of view -- do you believe it's okay to take away a right bestowed upon someone by God? Namely, the right of free will?
I feel the right of free will is important, but when it is going to screw up the upraising of a child, it is wrong and we should make an effort to limit that freedom.

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  #95  
Old July 1st, 2015, 11:20 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

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I do not support them passing it, and I know that although the people are not evil, homosexuality is wrong. Say what ever you will against me, but I will hold my ground!
Might I inquire, though?

From a strictly religious point of view -- do you believe it's okay to take away a right bestowed upon someone by God? Namely, the right of free will?
I feel the right of free will is important, but when it is going to screw up the upraising of a child, it is wrong and we should make an effort to limit that freedom.
So then there simply must have been gay parents for the kid that killed 9 people in that church in South Carolina recently, or the Boston Marathon bombers, or the guy that shot up the movie theater in Colorado during the Batman movie, or the Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVey, and so many horrible incidents such as these?

Maybe straight marriage should be banned, because it's been shown to screw up the raising of a child.

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  #96  
Old July 1st, 2015, 11:32 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

Read through the whole thread, Scaperdude. It's not long, as these threads go.

If you feel like you still have something to add when you get to the end, then go for it.


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