vegie's C3V/SoV Power Rankings

[OEAO]

Originally Posted by vegietarian18

I'm not sure if that's just because they're a 2 man squad, or because they're overpriced, or if 2 attack is too inconsistent, but they feel very hard to save.

All of the above...

This does feel like a bit of a knee-jerk reaction. The sample size is really small here. I don't think Greenies are A material, and I don't think Spiders are quite there either. Greenies still get stomped by bonding melee. Maybe Heavies having a terrible matchup into Cathar is enough to where the Greenies don't have to worry about seeing them, but Dwarves and Knights still have the dragon matchups. Marutuk is really good into dragons too.

[vegietarian18]

It's tough, I feel like Greenscales are a step above the A- figures but not one of the best of the A figures. But three people bought Greenscales to this event, and one brought Spiders. That's much higher representation than any of the other A- figures.

kevindola was able to beat my dad's Knights of Weston using Spiders because of kind a board vulnerability in Highways and Dieways. He built a wall of Spiders in the water outside his startzone, and Spiders standing in that water cannot be attacked. My dad was forced to go through the water on the other side of the startzone as Marcu was clogging the bridge. Although that part of Highways and Dieways was an advantage I do have to wonder if another board would have made the Marro Warriors even better against the Knights. Although that's an argument in favor of the Marros not in favor of the Spiders and Greenscales, although Dragons do pair more nicely with Marros than other things.

I do think the second order effects of Cathar should tamp down the purest melee builds though. Like I don't think it's safe to run Knights x5 Gilbert or Heavies x5 Grimnak in a C3V meta because you need more lives of bonding. Not just to soak the Braced Spears initially, but you need something that can stay engaged with the Cathar long term so the Cathar don't just kill the squad figures that you engaged them with and make you take the Spear again. But maybe that's an argument for Dwarves being better in C3V, as you can pair them with things like Braxas or Q9 or Incendiborgs, and those guys can you win you the Cathar matchup, and the Dwarves can win you the Greenscale matchup.

[OEAO]

Originally Posted by vegietarian18

It's tough, I feel like Greenscales are a step above the A- figures but not one of the best of the A figures. But three people bought Greenscales to this event, and one brought Spiders. That's much higher representation than any of the other A- figures.

kevindola was able to beat my dad's Knights of Weston using Spiders because of kind a board vulnerability in Highways and Dieways. He built a wall of Spiders in the water outside his startzone, and Spiders standing in that water cannot be attacked. My dad was forced to go through the water on the other side of the startzone as Marcu was clogging the bridge. Although that part of Highways and Dieways was an advantage I do have to wonder if another board would have made the Marro Warriors even better against the Knights. Although that's an argument in favor of the Marros not in favor of the Spiders and Greenscales, although Dragons do pair more nicely with Marros than other things.

I do think the second order effects of Cathar should tamp down the purest melee builds though. Like I don't think it's safe to run Knights x5 Gilbert or Heavies x5 Grimnak in a C3V meta because you need more lives of bonding. Not just to soak the Braced Spears initially, but you need something that can stay engaged with the Cathar long term so the Cathar don't just kill the squad figures that you engaged them with and make you take the Spear again. But maybe that's an argument for Dwarves being better in C3V, as you can pair them with things like Braxas or Q9 or Incendiborgs, and those guys can you win you the Cathar matchup, and the Dwarves can win you the Greenscale matchup.

I agree with you on Cathar’s effect. I wouldn’t play Heavies in a VC-Inclusive environment: either I’m weak to Cathar, or I’m building around Cathar and weakening my army against the rest of the field.

As for representation: yes, although I think it’s also just personal preference. To draw a parallel from X-Wing 2.0: at the beginning of 2.0, some ridiculous percentage (90+%) of Rebel lists had an X-Wing (one out of maybe 12-13 ships in that faction). That didn’t necessarily make it the correct choice (it was actually the opposite: you actively hurt your chances of making the cut if you brought an X-Wing). I’m not saying this is the same thing because dragons are clearly really good, but preference is often a large factor. I’ll never run 4th, 10th, or Q9 in 4x4, even though I think those are probably all correct choices to bring.

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by vegietarian18

So the Bring the Cheese Event is over, with kevindola's Spiders x4, Quahon, Raelin, Marro Warriors, Marcu triumphing over Sir Heroscape's Greenscales x3, Nilfheim, Raelin, Marro Warriors.

I moved up both Greenscales and Spiders to A. I don't know exactly why I had left them at A- before: Greenscales were A- in the dok power rankings and I actually moved up Fyorlags from B+. But both of these squads can contend with the best, obviously, so I put them up with the big boys. They have an interesting dynamic where I think Nilfheim is better than Quahon, but Spiders are better than Greenscales. So I think the two pairings sharing the A ranking makes sense.

Really what this event showed is how good the Marro Warriors are though, and that they deserve the A+. These were the only Marro Warriors armies and they met in the finals and the Marro Warriors did a ton of work in the finals and in the games leading up to it. They are very safe and very good. Adding another dimension to your army is really helpful.

Yeah Marro Warriors are definitely top tier. They’re the best endgame unit (well, I guess maybe besides Isamu for points) and clutch so many games. You don’t even have to restrict them for the endgame, they’re great at all phases of the game and there’s plenty you can do with them before it. Any army, any matchup, any map, they’re amazing.

Spiders also have Kozil with VC who’s solid. He’s like a Krug for them. Not quite as good as Krug and is certainly no Quahon, but better than the Wyvern (though I think the Wyvern’s better than where you have it) and obviously better than Sujoah. He’s a strong bonding hero.

And Quahon with Greenscales is a great army as well.

[vegietarian18]

The Wyvern is pretty solid but I think it's a lot better in RtW than standard.

It's actually an interesting concept. There's a lot of cool high impact powers like Theracus Carry and Wyvern Talon Grab and Tandros Kreel combat challenge that are pretty powerful but the top tier armies are able to just blast through those powers and make them irrelevant in terms of who will win the game. But once you tamp down the armies a bit then those powers can be game-defining.

Kozil is just good because he can jump into a pile of squads and take a few squaddies down with him. He's like Krug, but he he is anti-squad instead of anti-hero, but it's better to be anti-squad. He doesn't have as high of potential as Krug though.

[vegietarian18]

Buccaneers of Tortuga have really impressed me in this latest online event. I don't know if they're B+ tier for sure yet but they're certainly better than I thought. I think I just misunderstood how their Opportune Strike works and thought you needed an OM not a revealed OM.

They basically have +1 attack permanently against Raelin, or a bonding Nilfheim, or any bonding hero for that matter, and +1 against everything in the game if they win init on their OM1. Being good against the heroes and not the squads gives them a different style than many other figures. You're just trying to blow your opponent up by cutting off the head of their army. But that synergizes well with the rest of their powers and opponents are not really prepared for that kind of style. I could see them being as good as Mezzos or Phantoms to be honest but need more experimentation.

Otherwise I think the latest online event is mostly informative to HoB meta which is a little warped. Vicerion the Blood Knight is insane in HoB but I don't think it translates as much to normal games.

[mtl1998]

I think the Buccaneers are B+. They’re as good as all of the other squads in your B+ group, in my opinion. I think in HoB they’re an A unit. The trouble I see them running into is getting a meaningful number of them in the action. I found a lot of success in having them spread across the map so at any given turn I could attack a variety of figures, taking advantage of their Opportunistic power. It would be more challenging to have this kind of board state in a game where they have to be placed in their start zones.

I agree this squad hasn’t been fully figured out yet and more experimentation is needed to nail down an accurate ranking. They have an interesting matchup against bonding squads like greenscales and dreadguls where they have 4 attack against the bonding hero and disengage to get to said hero. I think in other matchups (against armies that after turn 1 they won’t get their Opportunistic bonus attack) you really need to pair them with a hero that can be effective on OMs 2 and 3.

[vegietarian18]

We're now in the semifinals of the second Bring the Cheese event so I thought I'd drop a quick 1300 word update on my rankings on the early results of that event.

Buccaneers of Tortuga B -> B+. This is also a reflection of their solid performance in Online Heroscape S36 Bring 2 Heat of Battle, both times piloted by mtl1998 who tried to get me to move them up last time. They didn't have an incredible performance in this event, going 1-1 with a win over Nagrubs with Kon-Tar-Na and SBN and a loss to Raelin Q9 Rats, but 1-1 is pretty solid for a B+ squad in a cheese event. In their loss to Q9 they even managed to take down Q9, but lost to the Hydra when they couldn't get any heads off. Relative to other B+ squads, they have a much higher ceiling. I think the best comparison for them powerwise is Airborne Elite, even though AE are A- and they're B+. Both can be brutal if they get the right setup and win initiative, but if things go the wrong way, especially the big initiatives, they can fizzle. Overall I like them because they have solid matchups against a variety of things: bonding melee you can nuke the heroes, Raelin Q9 Rats you can slip through the screen and catch Raelin or Q9, GladBlast you have permanent +1 attack against the Glads, Greenscales you have permanent +1 attack against the dragon. Really the only bad matchups are massed ranged commons where you have to rely on Elusive and won't get Opportunistic, or very strong melee bonding like Knights or Dwarves that don't really have a focal point hero, that can just overwhelm them with numbers. But they also don't have any great matchups unfortunately which is why I think they're more B+ than A-.

Havech Eradicators B -> B+. I think they maybe were originally here and I moved them down to B but I'm sending them back. This is a reflection of their solid performance in the Online Con C3V Bring 2, piloted both times by superfrog. Both times he's just gone straight massed Eradicators, no support, and done pretty well against solid armies. In this latest Bring the Cheese event he went 2-1 with wins over Nagrubs with TKN and Krav, Omegacron and Omnis, and a loss to Rats Raelin Incendiborgs. They are fast, have solid stats, and the option to switch to range when needed really does justify the +15 points relative to Horned Skull Brutes. More than any other figure in the game they offer reliable and durable big attacks. I think they're a little bit more of a "crush the mediocre armies" type figure compared to the Buccaneers that can compete with the best but will often lose. 3 attacks per turn just doesn't cut it against melee bonding which is a large chunk of the viable armies for cheese formats.

Morgan’s Rifleman B- -> B+ My original comment on these guys on release ranking was I had no clue how good they are. I think that's still pretty true, but the initial results are promising. They are in BodaciousBlood's 4th Mass semifinal (and counting) army that has had a very tough path: wins over Rats and Vulcanmechs, Cathar Spearmen and Vulcanmechs, Rats and Q9. They were the game winning piece against the Cathar, kiting them around the board after the Vulcanmechs beat the 4th. They have ridiculous cleanup kite potential against leftover melee bonding squad figures, which is a matchup 4th struggle with a bit. Unfortunately they are a 3 hex squad which is sad for the 4th that already struggle a bit with hexes. I haven't played with them myself a ton, so I wouldn't be surprised to see them go down or up from here, but I think they've earned a place on the map at B+ for now.

Other comments:

Major Q9: A to B+. Not really. I think he still deserves the A, but I feel pretty confident after this event that he doesn't deserve the A+ anymore. The C3V meta is just rough for him, so many counters have been printed that he just can't do his old thing. Vulcanmechs to me feel like a much safer choice in having the Redundant Systems that allows them to sleep safely, having the ability to throw attacks of 4 from height, having the torches for an extra gear in melee. Q9 has his advantages, like slightly faster move, longer range, Queglix flexibility against Krav and even just the stronger special against Rats, but I think it's truly a choice of which of the two 180 point soulborg choices fits your army better.

53rd North Carolina: I kind of just threw these guys in at B, wasn't exactly sure where they belong. I think that's appropriate; they have a ton of range but only 2 attacks per turn allows you to do things you wouldn't normally do to close the gap on to them. Arrow Grut played them in mass with Laglor and lost to my GladBlast build in the first round. I think there's some room for improved builds with them; I'm not convinced you need Laglor, or 5 squads of them. What you need is things to keep the gap between you and your opponent large, and then something big (Hydra?) that can punish them for getting too close. For now I think B is right, but there's some potential.

Heavy Gruts: Have been a notable absence from this first two VCheese events; no one brought them to either one. OrcElfArmyOne thinks the C3V meta hurts them particularly and I think that's a fair assessment. Cathar are especially brutal for them, since you need the heroes alive for Heavies more than any other melee bonding squad and the heroes need to soak the braced spears since they take their turn first. Heracles is not someone they want to see either. I think it may be the right call to drop them to A- due to meta shifts, but I'm not ready to make that call yet.

Initial Rankings for New Figures:
12th Caucuses Rifle: B They are a two man squad, so harder to go higher than this. I will say that I like them though. They can get a third attack from the grenade, but the grenade is a huge 50/50 all or nothing which I think makes them very inconsistent. I think they have some potential, especially as a squad you can play with Rats, because they're only 2 hexes per squad. Laglor synergy as well is nice.
Acolytes of Vorganund and Corvor the Tainted One: B Perhaps when Corvor gets more competitive play with them they'll move up to B+ or even above, but I think they should have to earn that.
Tombstone Gunslingers: B Along the lines of Beakface Sneaks where they are a fun piece in drafts, but not really a competitively viable pick due to matchup dependence and price per figure.
Kuthnak: B+ Unlike the others here this guy has been tournament tested, going 4-1 with two different armies at the Online NHSD shortly after release. To be honest I think he is kind of a cheese figure in the sense that it can crush someone who doesn't know what's coming. A patient player can mostly defuse his whirlwinds, and then his army is playing 70 short. But I think he deserves credit for some solid early results basically.
Cal the Smuggler: C+ He can go most anywhere, but he is not getting anywhere.
Motley Max: B- I think this could be a bit low, but he's just a single attacker. Yes, he can get pseudo-attacks by pulling people into Engagement Strike, but that can backfire if you fail the Engagement Strike and then there's just squads right on top of him.
Breach: B This is the same as Talingul and the other good great constructs. I think Breach is a slight step down from the others; I think Augamo, Boreos, and Avernus are all better figures in a Talingul build than Breach. Breach is solid though.

[dok]

Good update. I agree with all the changes. Not completely on board with all the initial rankings but we'll see on those.

vegie and I were chatting about Incendiborgs vs. Q9 and I thought I'd summarize the discussion from my perspective here.

I still believe Q9>Incendiborgs overall. Mainly because 7 defense is ridiculously good on a multi-life hero, and gets more out of Raelin support. 6 defense incendiborgs will win a lot of matchups, but they can still be ground down by attacks of 3 by basically any metagamey common squad (knights, heavies, spearmen, stingers, 4th, 10th, etc etc). Those same squads need to rely on some sort of attack boost (or just dumb luck) if they're going to try to efficiently bring down a 9 or 10 defense Q9. Even if Q9 has only 4 life and can take multiple wounds at once, while the I-borgs have 6 "life" and don't start losing attacks until the 4th hit, Q9 still has better overall survivability in the current metagame.

Vegie's counter to this is that the I-borgs are lower variance on defense (absolutely true) and that they are better against big hitters. The latter is also true, however in the context of specific matchups it's rare that I'd really prefer I-borgs over Q9 simply because of the better matchup against a big hitter. For example, against Nilf+Greenscales Q9 is theoretically more afraid of Nilf's attack of 6, but in practice I actually want to bait Nilf in, and would be pretty happy to take my chances facing an attack of 6 from a Nilfheim who was no longer protected by Raelin and Greenscales. Meanwhile the Incendiborgs face 3 attacks of 4 from Ice Shards and lose markers quickly even with 6 defense.

Setting aside the dragons for a moment, what are the 5 and 6 attack metagame monsters that would make us not want to play Q9? In a more "normal" metagame with bring 2 or drafting or just not full-on cheese, there are many. But in the absolute cheese format like we are exploring in the VCheese event, I just don't think there are a lot of big hitters you are expecting to run into... except the dragons, against whom I still prefer Q9. (This is where power rankings get tricky, because it becomes a question of whether we're considering the most optimized metagame or the most common metagame.)

The differences in range and movement also matter. 4 move hurts the borgs surprisingly often, and the 8 range normal attack Q9 has is very strategically important in dictating the flow and location of the battle. Also the Queglix gun gives big tactical advantages at times, most notably against Krav and PKs.

---

There is a flip side though, and that is what Incendiborgs can do with height advantage. Q9's offensive output tops out at 3 attacks of 3, while Incendiborgs can hit 3 attacks of 4. This is a big flex and makes a huge difference in some matchups.

This is also where things get complicated, because the figures don't exist in a vacuum. They are part of a larger build. And in a ratpodge, you generally pair Q9 with something that can flex into multiple attacks of 4. I have infamously paired Q9 with a Hydra, which solves the problem of getting attacks of 4 nicely when facing melee armies. However the Hydra is very difficult to leverage (as part of the ratpodge) against ranged squads.

Another great option to pair with Q9/Borgs, though, is Krav. Krav can flex into attacks of 4 as well, and are great against ranged squads. This makes them a great pairing for Q9. However I see them as a mostly redundant pairing with the Incendiborgs. Q9 and Krav cover each other's bad matchups better than Incendiborgs and Krav do.

There were three entries of this type in the VCheese event:

Raelin, Rats x3, Q9, Hydra, Marcu
Raelin, Rats x3, Incendiborgs, Hydra, Marcu
Raelin, Rats x4, Incendiborgs, Krav

The first two both lost to 4th Mass. Hydra is pretty bad in this matchup so it's not super surprising they lost. I'm a touch biased but I'd argue the second army was favored against the 4th and lost mainly due to the rats dying pretty shockingly quickly. (4th are good against rats & raelin because they never need to shoot at 6 defense rats... but still.) The third is still alive, and did survive a tricky matchup against Cultists and Krav. (Q9 obviously is bad against Cultists, so a point for the borgs there, although Q9 is better against Krav and Hydra is better against Cultists so it's tricky to figure out which ratpodge would have been best there.)

Overall I think the third build is probably the strongest of the three, mainly because of that fourth squad of rats. Krav + Rats > Hydra + Marcu, and that likely swamps any other differences. However I think once you take Krav you may as well take Q9. So, I actually don't think the best ratpodge for the point total (Raelin, rats x4, Q9, Krav) saw action in the event. Of course, that 520-point build is one that's been around for a long time. It was played in the 2008 main event that hit this point total (an event that was won by the 'tron army that vegie played in VCheese, FWIW). That was before the Hydra (or the Greenscales, or PKs) even existed.

However, I do expect the Raelin, Rats x4, Incendiborgs, Krav army to win the event, as it has a very favorable semifinal matchup against Arrow Gruts, and both potential finals opponents could struggle to deal with the ratpodge given the map/glyph set for finals. I just don't think this tells us that much about the comparison between Incendiborgs and Q9.

[Dad_Scaper]

In my own very limited experience with the 'Borgs, I found it to be quite difficult to get height against another ranged unit, given their 4 Move. Obviously against melee, it would be a different story.

[Chris Perkins]

I agree with pretty much everything dok said above, but I wanted to add one thing with regards to the dragon matchups (when the dragon doesn't charge in for normal attacks, as it usually shouldn't).

Both top meta dragons (Quahon & Nilfheim) have an advantage against Incendiborgs that they do not against Q9: they can attack them multiple times per turn (almost always at least 2, sometimes 3).

2-3 attacks of 4 v. 6 (assuming Raelin) is going to get through much more often than 1 attack of 4 v. 9 and I think it makes the dragon matchup significantly worse for Incendiborgs.

Can Incendiborgs spread out more to avoid this? Sure. But doing so is going to make the rat screen less effective and might require one (or two) of them leaving Raelin's aura.

Now, obviously my round 1 matchup result doesn't support these claims, but I don't believe the outcome there was representative of the theoretical matchup between Quahon/Nilfheim v. Q9/Incendiborgs.

[vegietarian18]

Originally Posted by dok

Setting aside the dragons for a moment, what are the 5 and 6 attack metagame monsters that would make us not want to play Q9? In a more "normal" metagame with bring 2 or drafting or just not full-on cheese, there are many. But in the absolute cheese format like we are exploring in the VCheese event, I just don't think there are a lot of big hitters you are expecting to run into... except the dragons, against whom I still prefer Q9. (This is where power rankings get tricky, because it becomes a question of whether we're considering the most optimized metagame or the most common metagame.)

The differences in range and movement also matter. 4 move hurts the borgs surprisingly often, and the 8 range normal attack Q9 has is very strategically important in dictating the flow and location of the battle. Also the Queglix gun gives big tactical advantages at times, most notably against Krav and PKs.

So the big 5 or 6 attack metagame monster is Heracles, who actually gets 7 dice against Q9. To be fair, Incendiborgs do struggle with Heracles too, but not as much as Q9 does. To a lesser extent there's also Marutuk, who is just too easy to dissolve with engagements and double space denial because she can't attack small or medium figures when large or huge is nearby. Heracles has ridiculous mobility (24 spaces on initiative switch, with three chances to use Throw to make a hole for himself as well) that makes Q9 very easy to catch. Heracles hasn't seen a lot of play in either VCheese event, only one build, which was mtl's Stingers x5 Heracles from last time. I think that build is a too doubled down on hero killing. It lost to Knights in the first round which is pretty expected. There's my Cathar x4 Marutuk build that went 2-1, with wins over Knights, and Cathar + Incendiborgs, loss to Nilfheim Greenscales. I probably win the Greenscales matchup with Heracles instead of Marutuk as Marutuk was massive liability due to Sir Heroscape's great figure placement and game was still close. This build is probably the most promising evidence that Heracles can work, even though it doesn't involve him directly.

I guess the question is if Heracles himself is competitively viable, or if he's a spoiler pick like Cultists. Heracles has similar to Cultist fantastic matchups against Dragons and Q9; I think I'd even argue that he has better matchups since he's better at killing the big things than Cultists are which is how you win those games. He gives an edge in the Heavies matchup (unless he gets Chomped) which Cultists do not do. Relative to Cultists he also helps with Hydra, and against some of the just out of meta things like Deathchasers and Arrow Gruts. Against armies without Large Huge though Heracles is just a guy. I think the viable Heracles build is Cathar x4 Heracles; they complement each other nicely. But that sort of build where you're trying to tilt towards edges in variety of matchups easily can fall apart on either side if things go wrong.

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

In my own very limited experience with the 'Borgs, I found it to be quite difficult to get height against another ranged unit, given their 4 Move. Obviously against melee, it would be a different story.

4 move is definitely slow; they are the sort of figure that really needs to come out at the right time or they can get crushed. Your matchup vs. dok where you were playing the Incendiborgs definitely wasn't going to be an easy time for them, but I think a lot of that is due to Cal the Smuggler forcing you to cede board control.

Originally Posted by Chris Perkins

I agree with pretty much everything dok said above, but I wanted to add one thing with regards to the dragon matchups (when the dragon doesn't charge in for normal attacks, as it usually shouldn't).

Both top meta dragons (Quahon & Nilfheim) have an advantage against Incendiborgs that they do not against Q9: they can attack them multiple times per turn (almost always at least 2, sometimes 3).

2-3 attacks of 4 v. 6 (assuming Raelin) is going to get through much more often than 1 attack of 4 v. 9 and I think it makes the dragon matchup significantly worse for Incendiborgs.

Can Incendiborgs spread out more to avoid this? Sure. But doing so is going to make the rat screen less effective and might require one (or two) of them leaving Raelin's aura.

Now, obviously my round 1 matchup result doesn't support these claims, but I don't believe the outcome there was representative of the theoretical matchup between Quahon/Nilfheim v. Q9/Incendiborgs.

That's a fair point as well. My dad has Incendiborgs paired with Krav, which I think greatly helps in the dragon matchups as the dragons struggle to kill Krav, but Incendiborgs are certainly more vulnerable to the dragon specials than Q9 is. What your game showed is that Quahon can go cold with much more punishing consequences than other top tier figures.