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  #529  
Old November 27th, 2021, 12:49 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

I would say even if he averages 30pts per game, what other figure averages 3x their points per game? Imagine if Q9 consistently killed 540pts (full armies worth in most competitive games).

Marcu is an interesting one that could probably be argued for A+ over A. Being able to tank Wannok for an army allows that army to focus elsewhere. His worst matchup is probably a lava map, and his best matchup includes a mirror Marcu on the other team. And unless he does betray you his first activation, he’s probably good for ~20pts everytime.
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  #530  
Old November 27th, 2021, 12:55 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

Question for figures like Isamu is opportunity cost: if you are putting an Order Marker on him, taking a turn with him, even putting him in your army, what other option did you not go with instead?

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  #531  
Old November 27th, 2021, 01:11 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

I suspect the lack of comment is:
1) holiday week
2) this thread doesn’t tend to be too active (so people might miss it)
3) some people may feel “unqualified” to have an opinion on rankings.

On #3, I know for me I’d consider myself a pretty experienced player and relatively competitive…and yet I still don’t think I understand the units well enough to understand their rankings and/or how they should be placed in the overall meta of all units. So I enjoy reading these threads more than participating usually. But on occasion if something strikes me in particular I’ll comment. As the discussion continues I may pop in with an opinion or comment.
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  #532  
Old November 27th, 2021, 01:15 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
Question for figures like Isamu is opportunity cost: if you are putting an Order Marker on him, taking a turn with him, even putting him in your army, what other option did you not go with instead?
I don't anticipate, except in some extraordinary circumstances, you're using him before the endgame. At which point, the answer to your last question might be none, or close to it.

And the point of my earlier post is, unlike with all the other A+ units, the cost of "putting him in your army" is, similarly, almost none. You didn't give up much, cost-wise, to put that 10 point figure in your army.

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  #533  
Old November 27th, 2021, 01:20 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
I don't anticipate, except in some extraordinary circumstances, you're using him before the endgame.
Assassinating Raelin isn't that extraordinary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Van Ness View Post
I highly recommend C3V and C3G customs!
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  #534  
Old November 27th, 2021, 01:53 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

There may be times when you want to rush him out. I don’t know whether that situation is one that happens in high level play, because I’m not that good.

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  #535  
Old November 27th, 2021, 03:09 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

For what it's worth, I agree that Isamu should be an A, not an A+. I've spent a little time arguing that in the Discord and I don't know if I can change dok's mind so that's why I haven't posted anything here. I think dok's rating is more based on traumatic Isamu experiences than actual power ranking criteria.

I disagree with D_S's fundamental point that an army of X - 10 points + Isamu is better than an army of X points. Filling all the points is good. People do not intentionally pick armies that are 10 points under so they can sneak Isamu into their build. It is bad to be under on points; you are playing with less firepower than your opponent. Isamu and Marcu are actually good for the health of competitive Heroscape in that strong filler figures make it less penalizing to be under on points and thus play a wider variety of builds, but it's still not ideal to be under.

I also pretty strongly disagree with the ratio math of "Isamu kills 3 times his points so he's as good as Major Q9 killing 540 points". That's just not how it works. It's basically the same joke people make when a soccer game is 2-1 and someone says one team has twice as many points as the other. Multiplication is not the relevant mathematical operation. Marro Warriors routinely being able to kill a floor of 80+ points, 30 more than their cost, with a much higher ceiling, makes them a higher impact figure than Isamu killing 30 random points, 20 more than his cost, in the endgame, when it's very unlikely to tilt an actual game outcome. I also am not sure 30 is the right average for Isamu. I think there are many many games where he kills nothing, or only kills one squad figure.

On the subject of non-endgame Isamu, I used Isamu as a blocker developed on OM1 in my VCheese 3 championship game against infectedsloth, inspired by @NecroBlade doing the same thing to me at ScapeCon. I think that's a viable move, but it's only viable if you're intending to play a very turtley game where you don't really want to develop out of your startzone. I also had Rygarn who made Isamu much more of a threat, with OM flexing available. Raelin assassin Isamu is pretty much a fool's errand unless you are extremely desperate and your opponent's Raelin is super far forward.

At the end of the day though, I don't really care about Isamu's ranking. Just like Boreos, who dok has at A- hanging with the big boys, the justification seems to be more a difference in how the actual rankings are philosophized than an argument on power level, and that's a hard and dumb argument to win.

On your other opinions, 100% agree on Boreos as I've already said. 100% agree on Van Nessing, didn't even realize he was a B- in these rankings, that's crazy low. I think he's only a little bit worse than Kaemon Awa point for point in that special attacker support role, so I'd put him at B+ personally. Nhah Scirh Cultists are weird because yes they counter Q9 and dragons but they lose hard to melee bonding and there's not a single practical way to smooth that. Running Cultists in a tournament is jaywalking with your eyes closed basically. I think B is fine for them. No opinions on the other two as I have never played with or against them.
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  #536  
Old November 27th, 2021, 04:27 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

All good nominations for good reasons. Only one I’m on the fence about is the Nhah Scirh. Though they can be effective in meta countering circumstances, they are niche and can easily end up played without using almost any of their abilities, and having almost no synergies cements that lament. I’d place them between B and B+ or among both if possible..

Can concur that this week has been especially quiet on the forums.
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  #537  
Old November 27th, 2021, 06:24 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

I also think that when you're debating half-letter grades it's basically an area of subjectivity at its finest. As in, it's not really a huge difference or a big deal either way.

C3G can be played with official Heroscape, but it's not recommended.


DISCLAIMER: C3G claims no ownership of the characters or artwork used for C3G customs. All rights for the characters belong to their respective publishers/creators. C3G cards are not intended for sale, and C3G does not authorize any party to profit from C3G cards.

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  #538  
Old November 27th, 2021, 06:35 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
I also think that when you're debating half-letter grades it's basically an area of subjectivity at its finest. As in, it's not really a huge difference or a big deal either way.
I agree with this generally, and especially so when the grades in question are not in the range of B+ or better.

Also, I'm not going to debate with vegie (or dok) on these matters, on the basis that I am not qualified to do so.

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  #539  
Old November 27th, 2021, 06:37 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

I'm qualified to express my wrong opinion in any venue.

C3G can be played with official Heroscape, but it's not recommended.


DISCLAIMER: C3G claims no ownership of the characters or artwork used for C3G customs. All rights for the characters belong to their respective publishers/creators. C3G cards are not intended for sale, and C3G does not authorize any party to profit from C3G cards.

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  #540  
Old November 27th, 2021, 06:57 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

The boards get pretty barren near the holidays, and on Sundays. Often steady conversations will fizzle out during these times, and never really become active again for several weeks, or even months.

I did read your suggestions, and I appreciated the thought that seemed to be put into them. I generally don't comment on power rankings myself, so I didn't reply. I like to look through the rankings, and the discussions surrounding them, but I only make comments to myself about the specific design placings, even if I disagree. I don't usually feel like I have the time or motivation to properly articulate why I feel one way or the other, so I generally just read and move on. I think this is a common feeling, on these forums.

If you are looking for a more engaging and active discussion on any topic, the Discord servers are the place to go. https://discord.gg/9RqzEUfQ
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