The Book of Emma Frost

[japes]

Originally Posted by Hahma

Just like now, nobody is forcing females to wear leggings, yoga pants etc, with thong underwear that pretty much don't leave anything to the imagination.

I mean, have you actually tried to wear regular underwear under yoga pants...the bunching will drive you crazy.

[MrNobody]

Originally Posted by Lord Pyre

@MrNobody what do you have to say for yourself??

[Hahma]

Originally Posted by Arkham

Are you suggesting there's a fair amount of people, who like being looked at?

Who....me???

Despite what some people would say...yes I am indeed suggesting that.

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Yeah, but there's plenty of people (me included) who do feel uncomfortable about how much of the media panders to the 'male gaze' as it's known.

I'm a 52 year old white heterosexual man. I am the devil according to some groups and some media. It's all my fault folks. Sorry for everything I have done, am doing, and will do.

Originally Posted by japes

I mean, have you actually tried to wear regular underwear under yoga pants...the bunching will drive you crazy.

I tried it once, and that's all it took man. I roll with the thong all day long when wearing leggings or yoga pants. I wasn't blaming anyone for doing that, just saying that @MrNobody made them or me for do it

[Lord Pyre]

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Hahma

I'm a 52 year old white heterosexual man. I am the devil according to some groups and some media. It's all my fault folks. Sorry for everything I have done, am doing, and will do.

Yeah, please don't do this. I'm not the stereotyped mostly imaginary 'evil Liberal' who's offended by everything and think straight white men are somehow evil. I know there are people like that, but they are in a minority among the more Liberally minded and are, unfortunately, just some of the loudest and make effective targets to convince people on the fence to rally against the entire principle. I don't think it's your fault. My issue is with the culture, not an individual person who just happens to belong to the dominant group. People from any given group are just as capable of being awesome or being asshats. I am white, and I don't feel some deep racial shame over what white people have done because, quite frankly, horrible as it is, it isn't my individual fault. I just try to be aware of those social issues.
The fact is, the culture has been, pretty much, developed _by_ straight white Christian guys for straight white Christian guys and, while I won't say that such people necessarily 'have it better' (as a conglomerate they do, but, again, considering the individual above the conglomerate that's not necessarily a fair statement - I see plenty of white homeless guys in Ludlow and Shrewsbury, no way I'd be inconsiderate or stupid enough to say they have it better than me, to take an extreme example), there certainly are a number of issues which people belonging to one or more of those dominant groups don't have to put up with and, therefore, might not fully appreciate. A number of people refer to it as white/male/straight etc. 'priviledge', and while that's the accepted term these days, I honestly hate that term - I think it conveys the wrong impression, as though such 'priviledges' are priviledges, and something you haven't earned or don't deserve. In reality, they aren't, IMO - it's just being treated with respect, as a human being, and being considered 'normal'. It isn't that straight white people don't deserve to be treated in this way - it's that everyone else does, and isn't, which is the actual tragedy. No one - unless they're an absolute bastard - is actually saying that you don't deserve to be treated this way.
I live in a small border town and dress distinctively but in no way revealingly. Regardless, I have been wolf-whistled or mildly harassed on numerous occasions, which always left me feeling exceptionally uncomfortable. What it would be like in a city, I can only imagine. Now, I'm not going to say that comics _cause_ this, but let'e be real - the art is marketed in such a way, much of the time, as to portray women not as real women but as sex objects to be ogled. It is a cultural issue, and it is damaging. Maybe a lot of women do like to wear revealing clothing, but I'm not talking about that - I'm talking about a cultural shorthand which often conveys, intentionally or otherwise, that women exist to please men.

As I said in Domino's thread:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

No, it's not a case of taking that right from them - actual women, and, of course, female characters, have a right to dress how they wish (as long as, in the case of female characters, it's portrayed well and respectfully) - but I still think that, given the amount of alienation, objectification and outright disrespect women receive in general, particularly in these sorts of circles but basically everywhere, that those sorts of objectifying images don't help. And I do feel like there's a difference between a female character being depicted as choosing to dress provacatively in a situation that makes sense and someone being given a random cleavage slit to sell sex and provide fanservice - the latter feels like it takes the character's agency away from them and reduces her to something for teenage boys to ogle. We can and should, as a society and, in microcosm, as a custom project, try to do better.
Please bear in mind that a lot of you probably don't know what it feels like to be marginalised and alienated like this. I bloody well do, for more reasons than one. It feels really crappy.

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Honestly, it's a similar thing I'm talking about here that it was with the Batwoman bio, in principal if not in execution. As a gay woman, I know what it feels like to be marginalised, alienated, ridiculed, misrepresented, objectified, in a culural sense even if not in person (and it has happened before in person, though fortunately not by people I actually know...). It feels like crap, quite frankly, and knowing what I do about how the comic industry does use objectification, this felt like an example of it to me, and made me feel uncomfortable. As I said, this objectification is the main reason I'm so hesitant to get into comics now (I've been considering it for a while, but this is one of the things that's always made me go 'nah' or 'I'll think about it - maybe another time). I don't know for certain if it's a problem here for this image and this character, but I think it's something we should bear in mind so that the female characters in this game aren't treated like sex objects and any women who want to give C3G a go (yes, both of them! ) don't feel marginalised or objectified. It's a problem media as a whole and the comic industry in particular has that really feels pretty crappy to the people it affects, and does turn people off, myself included. As Tornado said, there's no reason to be part of the problem.

[IAmBatman]

In the case of Emma Frost in particular, I think one of the main focal points of the character is that she uses her sexuality to manipulate people around her and how she presents herself physically is part of that. Often I find that type of things with characters pointless and objectionable (I stopped reading Birds of Prey because at the time the female characters were drawn as pretty much interchangeable impossible bodies with different colored hair). But for Emma I do feel like it informs her character and is part of a type of person that she represents, and that's interesting and worth representing accurately, I think.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

In the case of Emma Frost in particular, I think one of the main focal points of the character is that she uses her sexuality to manipulate people around her and how she presents herself physically is part of that. Often I find that type of things with characters pointless and objectionable (I stopped reading Birds of Prey because at the time the female characters were drawn as pretty much interchangeable impossible bodies with different colored hair). But for Emma I do feel like it informs her character and is part of a type of person that she represents, and that's interesting and worth representing accurately, I think.

That's a fair enough argument. Again, my refrain of the last few day - context is everything.

[Hahma]

@Lazy Orang

My comment about being a 52 year old white heterosexual man and the devil wasn't directed towards you. You mentioned the male graze and I extrapolated upon that term and how some view us, like some think men are pigs for depicting women in art or whatever.

My apology was in jest, and mocking those that think my group (middle-aged white straight males) are the scum of the earth. I honestly don't give a rat's ass what society thinks of me personally. I'm a good dude and raise my kids to be inclusive and love all, except for asshats

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Hahma

@Lazy Orang

My comment about being a 52 year old white heterosexual man and the devil wasn't directed towards you. You mentioned the male graze and I extrapolated upon that term and how some view us, like some think men are pigs for depicting women in art or whatever.

My apology was in jest, and mocking those that think my group (middle-aged white straight males) are the scum of the earth. I honestly don't give a rat's ass what society thinks of me personally. I'm a good dude and raise my kids to be inclusive and love all, except for asshats

Fair enough, and I appreciate that. Still, I hope you read my whole message - I think what I'm saying with regards to the culture as a whole is relevant.

[johnny139]

I'm a big Emma fan and I'll note that doing her "right" means doing her sexy. She's one of the few comic characters that has specifically mentioned having work done - a nose job, implants, cuts and tucks and trims. Her accent is fake. She's not a natural blonde. Everything about her is fake.

I always appreciate that in a universe of barbie doll people she's one of the few that makes it clear the way she looks is completely unnatural.

[Hahma]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Fair enough, and I appreciate that. Still, I hope you read my whole message - I think what I'm saying with regards to the culture as a whole is relevant.

I agree with your points of view. White straight men have been culprits in a lot of negative issues. Many men in general of all races have been asses towards women. Some Christian women have been negative towards the LGBT community. Blacks kill like 7,000 other blacks in the U.S. a year and the most instances of violent crime are in urban areas and the highest percentage of assault against teachers also happens in urban areas of minorities. Those are from me, but from a black college professor whose column I read weekly.

Anyway, I have always gone by the thought that 10 percent of any group are bad eggs. Obviously, the bigger the group, the more bad eggs. But nonetheless, every group has bad eggs in my opinion. But by the same token, every group has a lot more good than bad. Of course, I'm not talking about hate groups and such, or criminals. More about racial, religious, sexual preference, gender types of groups.

My parents divorced when i was 5 and my dad didn't pay child support. My mom was a waitress and we lived in some pretty crapoy areas. I have had the misfortune or fortune, depending on different aspects, of living in a lot of places in my life. I went to 9 different schools while growing up (including 3 high schools) in the Chicago area, I was in the Marines for 4 years, moved to NY state near Rochester for 7 years, and a couple places in northwest Indiana where I currently live. I've lived in urban and rural areas. I've worked construction for a long time and been on many jobs with many different types of people. I have worked at a hospital for the past 11 years and it is in a very diverse area and has a great diversity of employees (racial, gender, cultural, religion etc.).

So while it sucked moving around a lot and never feeling stable, it did allow me to get to know a ton of different people from different backgrounds over the years. I've learned to judge people individually and not collectively. My wife grew up in a rough neighborhood in South Chicago. We teach our 16 year old twin daughters inclusiveness and to embrace diversity. In fact, their best friends are a biracial girl, a black Puerto Rican girl, a heavier girl and a girl born in China but adopted by a couple here, and she is a double amputee from the knees down from a house fire she was in back in China as a little girl. They have gay female friends as well. We taught them to stay away from mean kids and bullies and to help others. We tell them not to take crap fom boys and not to allow themselves to be treated wrong. I expect them to pass those principles on to their children and so on etc.

Ok, enough is enough on this subject and I don't want to drag this on any further.

[MrNobody]

Just out of curiosity, would Emma theoretically be able to attack herself by using her SA through a Proxy?