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  #13  
Old May 13th, 2020, 09:35 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

I really like the Majestic Inferno SA subtracting squad defense here. Yeah, it hits Uniques where Zelrig doesn't, but it's only -1 and that allows her to interact better with the set by itself, so I'd be fine with it. The Wild Swing angle is a nice idea to make it something different than the SAs we already have.

For her other power, I had suggested in the Discord: Huge figures can't choose Katryn for special powers or target her with special attacks. Since I imagine the main thematic intent is some kind of immunity to Dragons. This is wording that's much easier to work with, though.


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  #14  
Old May 13th, 2020, 09:44 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

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Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
I really like the Majestic Inferno SA subtracting squad defense here. Yeah, it hits Uniques where Zelrig doesn't, but it's only -1 and that allows her to interact better with the set by itself, so I'd be fine with it. The Wild Swing angle is a nice idea to make it something different than the SAs we already have.

For her other power, I had suggested in the Discord: Huge figures can't choose Katryn for special powers or target her with special attacks. Since I imagine the main thematic intent is some kind of immunity to Dragons. This is wording that's much easier to work with, though.
I agree, we should make her Icarian, and the current powers as worded work pretty well. Plus if you think about it, there's a TON os special powers that affect small.medium figures, (like MBS's Stare - No-Can-Do on this chick!)

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  #15  
Old May 13th, 2020, 09:46 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

My gut says that would need an editing eye to figure out if it works as intended or not. Also, again, if the idea is as I think to represent some kind of Dragon immunity, just use the anti-Huge wording I proposed (since being specific to Dragons wouldn't make it very useful in this set).


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  #16  
Old May 13th, 2020, 10:12 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

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Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
My gut says that would need an editing eye to figure out if it works as intended or not. Also, again, if the idea is as I think to represent some kind of Dragon immunity, just use the anti-Huge wording I proposed (since being specific to Dragons wouldn't make it very useful in this set).
Thematically, my intention behind the original Dragonheart Blade power wasn't really to give her immunity to dragons. I imagined it representing how the blade was forged with Zelrig's blood and carries some of his life-force, therefore it makes the wielder immune to the same things a dragon would be. Hence the immunity to things like Ullar Enhanced Rifle Special Attack, Engagement Strike, etc. Basically it would give her all the advantages of being considered a Huge figure without any of the disadvantages. However, I do realize that the wording as written may be bending the rules too much and I don't think we should try to force something if editing didn't think the intended effect could be expressed cleanly within the established language.

I also really like Astro's suggestion to model the special attack off Jotun's Wild Swing. I think that option is a little bit more wordy than having her hit everything adjacent, but if the wording for Dragonheart Blade (or whatever other power she ends up with if the original Dragonheart Blade doesn't work) isn't too complicated I'm guessing it shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Last edited by Captain Stupendous; May 13th, 2020 at 11:36 PM.
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  #17  
Old May 13th, 2020, 10:22 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

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Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
My gut says that would need an editing eye to figure out if it works as intended or not. Also, again, if the idea is as I think to represent some kind of Dragon immunity, just use the anti-Huge wording I proposed (since being specific to Dragons wouldn't make it very useful in this set).
There's that "within a set" way of thinking again, lol.

I'd like to respectfully propose we take all these units out of a "within a set" mindset, and instead keep an open mind on designing them so they work well with (and in some cases are throwbacks to) the actual HeroScape game. (I know I'm in the minority here, since it's contradicting the 'mission statement' but let me make my case)

I think it's fairly realistic to assume that someone who stumbles across this site, sees the cool custom's we're designing, goes out and buys em all, and starts to play will more than likely want to get into the "actual game". (Which is what we all should want, right? More Heroscapers!)

I think we SHOULD want figures to utilize terrain/powers/other stuff that requires at least 1 master set to play!

(Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now, and shut up lol. I'm not trying to be disrespectful btw Necro, just voicing my opinion.)

Anyone else agree here, or am I about to be banned from the group for rocking the boat too much?

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  #18  
Old May 13th, 2020, 10:56 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

I may have more time to express my thoughts more thoroughly tomorrow, but basically I think it would be a mistake to stray from the stated primary purposes of this project (Full VC compatibility, user-friendly point of entry for new players, and presentation of a self-contained and internally cohesive set).

The reason why I think these purposes are so important is that these are the main things that make this project unique and fulfill a need that is not currently being met already by C3V or SoV. If AotV didn't exist, anyone could still easily design a figure that manipulated terrain and have a chance at getting it approved through SoV. However, without AotV, right now there is no way for new players to obtain everything they need to play Heroscape for under $75.00 (and I think that's a low estimate). AotV has the potential to provide new players with everything they need to have an authentic and excellent Heroscape experience for less than $30.00. But by including units that don't work as well as possible within the self-contained nature of a Master Set, this defeats the purpose of providing new players with an excellent entry point to the game we all love. Once they have taken the plunge into AotV, at that point new players will be perfectly prepared to look to C3V and SoV to expand their collection with more figures that further push the boundaries of Heroscape's design space.

Most of what I'm saying here has already been very articulately expressed in Astroking's Case for a Valhalla Customs Master Set, the post that originally started the AotV project in the first place. If you haven't read it already, I'd definitely recommend that you check it out! It's a great read and perfectly summarizes why this project was so exciting to me from the beginning.

Last edited by Captain Stupendous; May 13th, 2020 at 11:28 PM.
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  #19  
Old May 14th, 2020, 06:34 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

I definitely appreciate the out of the box thinking, both literally and figuratively, but yes - like Captain S posted, designing with a master set in mind is one of the core principles of the project. You’re not going to be banned from the project, don’t worry. We just have to keep certain things in mind.
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  #20  
Old May 16th, 2020, 07:12 AM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

Haven't had a chance to sit down and think this one through.


So far, I'm not a major fan of her getting a size change from her sword. But I am really digging the sword explosion idea.
Not being targettable by Huge figure's special attacks is kinda wonky in the MS terms, since Ozuul's SA doesn't target. It would make her immune to the pull because I believe that is a targetting power. I'm not going to it, but I think we could brainstorm a bit more.

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  #21  
Old May 16th, 2020, 10:53 AM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
Haven't had a chance to sit down and think this one through.


So far, I'm not a major fan of her getting a size change from her sword. But I am really digging the sword explosion idea.
Not being targettable by Huge figure's special attacks is kinda wonky in the MS terms, since Ozuul's SA doesn't target. It would make her immune to the pull because I believe that is a targetting power. I'm not going to it, but I think we could brainstorm a bit more.
What about the size change ability don't you like? If it helps any, I don't thematically see the ability as literally changing her size. It's more like by channeling the powers of a dragon she gains the same immunities that a dragon (or any other huge figure) would have. To me that's very thematic, but I can see how someone could be bothered by the way the power mechanically uses a literal change in size to represent something that's actually a little more symbolic.

One other nice thing about the ability is that it would actually give some more "texture" to the master set in terms of size variation. If future figures have abilities that specifically call out a figure's size, right now that's not very interesting since the only figure that's not medium is Ozuul. However, if Katryn was immune to these types of abilities, that would give players a little more room for counter-play within the context of the Master Set.

I also like how the ability is thematic without dramatically changing the figure's playstyle or point value. It gives the flavor of a second power without increasing the complexity much.

I suppose that's my case for the current version of Dragonheart Blade. All that being said, however, I don't see it as an essential part of the design and am totally open to brainstorming more. Another potential option could be a reverse-Thorian Speed ability, something like,

Quote:
DRAGONHEART BLADE
An opponent's figure must be adjacent to Katryn in order to choose her as the target of a special attack.
I still think the size-based immunity power is more thematic, but I also like how this ability is even more of a callback to Drake and his magical katana. This would be very similar to Necroblade's suggestion, just a little more widely useful and more intentionally a mirror of Thorian Speed. Ironically, while I think this ability would probably be more useful overall and contribute more to her point value than my original size-changing idea, at this point it would actually be much less useful in terms of the Master Set as I don't think we have any ranged special attackers other than Pyria (who wouldn't be affected by this anyway as her special doesn't target specific figures). Of course, there's still plenty of time to add new ranged specials, but I thought it was worth pointing out, especially as I think this version of the ability would give her more of a niche use and feel like more of a waste in games where it wasn't relevant.

Last edited by Captain Stupendous; May 16th, 2020 at 11:10 AM.
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  #22  
Old May 16th, 2020, 11:59 AM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Stupendous View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
Haven't had a chance to sit down and think this one through.


So far, I'm not a major fan of her getting a size change from her sword. But I am really digging the sword explosion idea.
Not being targettable by Huge figure's special attacks is kinda wonky in the MS terms, since Ozuul's SA doesn't target. It would make her immune to the pull because I believe that is a targetting power. I'm not going to it, but I think we could brainstorm a bit more.
What about the size change ability don't you like? If it helps any, I don't thematically see the ability as literally changing her size. It's more like by channeling the powers of a dragon she gains the same immunities that a dragon (or any other huge figure) would have. To me that's very thematic, but I can see how someone could be bothered by the way the power mechanically uses a literal change in size to represent something that's actually a little more symbolic.

One other nice thing about the ability is that it would actually give some more "texture" to the master set in terms of size variation. If future figures have abilities that specifically call out a figure's size, right now that's not very interesting since the only figure that's not medium is Ozuul. However, if Katryn was immune to these types of abilities, that would give players a little more room for counter-play within the context of the Master Set.

I also like how the ability is thematic without dramatically changing the figure's playstyle or point value. It gives the flavor of a second power without increasing the complexity much.

I suppose that's my case for the current version of Dragonheart Blade. All that being said, however, I don't see it as an essential part of the design and am totally open to brainstorming more. Another potential option could be a reverse-Thorian Speed ability, something like,

Quote:
DRAGONHEART BLADE
An opponent's figure must be adjacent to Katryn in order to choose her as the target of a special attack.
I still think the size-based immunity power is more thematic, but I also like how this ability is even more of a callback to Drake and his magical katana. This would be very similar to Necroblade's suggestion, just a little more widely useful and more intentionally a mirror of Thorian Speed. Ironically, while I think this ability would probably be more useful overall and contribute more to her point value than my original size-changing idea, at this point it would actually be much less useful in terms of the Master Set as I don't think we have any ranged special attackers other than Pyria (who wouldn't be affected by this anyway as her special doesn't target specific figures). Of course, there's still plenty of time to add new ranged specials, but I thought it was worth pointing out, especially as I think this version of the ability would give her more of a niche use and feel like more of a waste in games where it wasn't relevant.
I'll second the size changing ability again. Very unique. Although this feels more of a Zelrig callback than Drake, to me. :P

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  #23  
Old May 16th, 2020, 12:23 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

While the abilities themselves are definitely a reference to Zelrig, the idea of a magical sword channeling the powers of a legendary warrior is an intentional nod to Drake. From Drake's official bio:

Quote:
The Katana, an enchanted sword that channels the powers of the great warrior Thorian, obscures Alexander's image from afar, making him almost impossible to strike.
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  #24  
Old May 16th, 2020, 01:49 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

The size defense ability is waaaaaaay too limited. She has to work within the set. Special attack defense works better for me.

Are we settled on her theme as a dragon warrior?
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