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C3G Library This area collects all the released designs. Feel free to post any figure specific questions in their individual books.


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  #85  
Old February 8th, 2018, 07:21 PM
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Re: The Book of Nightcrawler (Kurt Wagner) (II) (Public Play

Thanks for the tests!

Looking at your results, he seems pretty solid to me. I don't think a drop to 4 defense is really that necessary IMO. Yes, the blanks can be nice when they happen, but they aren't likely so that should be kept into perspective. Nightcrawler should be one of the hardest figures to hit. Boosting him with other figures, as you said yourself, is something that's already built into their costs.

Finally, I think you definitely experienced 2 games on opposite ends of the luck spectrum. In the first game it looks like the luck was all on the opponent's side, whereas in the 2nd game it was with Nightcrawler and his team. So I'm pretty content with how he's performing. I wouldn't be against a bump to 200 though if the last set of tests comes in consistently stronger.
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  #86  
Old February 8th, 2018, 07:37 PM
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Re: The Book of Nightcrawler (Kurt Wagner) (II) (Public Play

Looks like a solid win vs the F4 so he surely needs to come up in points or down somewhere else.

He looked fun though so that's a win.

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  #87  
Old February 8th, 2018, 08:01 PM
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Re: The Book of Nightcrawler (Kurt Wagner) (II) (Public Play

The drop in defense idea was such that the opponent doesn't get too frustrated about not being able to stop him while he pops around and decimates their team. It is just a balancing factor so both sides of the coin continue to have fun with the design. Let him continue to move around quickly and take people out, but at least it eventually ends. Base 5 defense, with high ground/Star Lord/Bane/CA giving him a boost is really solid when you consider his def. die are a 50% chance for either a shield or a blank (2 shields) where as other figures def. die are only 33% chance for a shield.
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  #88  
Old February 8th, 2018, 08:02 PM
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Re: The Book of Nightcrawler (Kurt Wagner) (II) (Public Play

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Originally Posted by japes View Post
Looks like a solid win vs the F4 so he surely needs to come up in points or down somewhere else.

He looked fun though so that's a win.
And a sizable loss to the Wrecking Crew. Luck clearly played a factor in each game, so we have to kind of read between the lines here and decide what is his average effectiveness outside of exceptionally poor/great games. The most impressive thing he did in the F4 game damage wise was on Thing, and there were botches at play.

Like I said, a 10 point bump is fair, but I wouldn't think anything else is needed based on those tests alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
The drop in defense idea was such that the opponent doesn't get too frustrated about not being able to stop him while he pops around and decimates their team. It is just a balancing factor so both sides of the coin continue to have fun with the design. Let him continue to move around quickly and take people out, but at least it eventually ends. Base 5 defense, with high ground/Star Lord/Bane/CA giving him a boost is really solid when you consider his def. die are a 50% chance for either a shield or a blank (2 shields) where as other figures def. die are only 33% chance for a shield.
Blob at 165 has double shields(higher odds than blanks) on normal adjacent attacks, can lock people down, and has a defense of 5 and life of 6 to boot. No reason Nightcrawler can't considerably out dodge most figures, that's supposed to be his thing. Now if we need to cut something, I'd dump his attack down to 2, making him less of an offensive threat and instead super mobile and support. Keep in mind, KD has 4 defense and blocks all damage on 1 blank. This Nightcrawler is meant to surpass that.

Auto-wounders, heavy hitters, ranged multi-attackers, and lockdown units will still generally have his number.
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  #89  
Old February 8th, 2018, 08:12 PM
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Re: The Book of Nightcrawler (Kurt Wagner) (II) (Public Play

Auto-wounder are certainly going to be his best counter since he just has the 4 life.
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  #90  
Old February 8th, 2018, 09:20 PM
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Re: The Book of Nightcrawler (Kurt Wagner) (II) (Public Play

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkham View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by japes View Post
Looks like a solid win vs the F4 so he surely needs to come up in points or down somewhere else.

He looked fun though so that's a win.
And a sizable loss to the Wrecking Crew. Luck clearly played a factor in each game, so we have to kind of read between the lines here and decide what is his average effectiveness outside of exceptionally poor/great games. The most impressive thing he did in the F4 game damage wise was on Thing, and there were botches at play.

Like I said, a 10 point bump is fair, but I wouldn't think anything else is needed based on those tests alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
The drop in defense idea was such that the opponent doesn't get too frustrated about not being able to stop him while he pops around and decimates their team. It is just a balancing factor so both sides of the coin continue to have fun with the design. Let him continue to move around quickly and take people out, but at least it eventually ends. Base 5 defense, with high ground/Star Lord/Bane/CA giving him a boost is really solid when you consider his def. die are a 50% chance for either a shield or a blank (2 shields) where as other figures def. die are only 33% chance for a shield.
Blob at 165 has double shields(higher odds than blanks) on normal adjacent attacks, can lock people down, and has a defense of 5 and life of 6 to boot. No reason Nightcrawler can't considerably out dodge most figures, that's supposed to be his thing. Now if we need to cut something, I'd dump his attack down to 2, making him less of an offensive threat and instead super mobile and support. Keep in mind, KD has 4 defense and blocks all damage on 1 blank. This Nightcrawler is meant to surpass that.

Auto-wounders, heavy hitters, ranged multi-attackers, and lockdown units will still generally have his number.
I'll be the first to admit that by rule I never test with Spidey or the Wrecking Crew due to inability to judge how much of the test was luck...The F4 though are always solid and he seemed to easily be able to get to Sue (while carrying his personal booster) and take her out with ease. I know I'm never the one that's gonna make the call on a cost for a figure but I do have a few markers that I can depend on and the F4 at 1000 points is pretty much a solid baseline in my book. If they lose and it's not close it's very rarely completely up to lucky/unlucky circumstances unless MrF just rolls a 1 on every turn.

That's all I'm trying to say. And yes I agree we don't need to make that decision after one set of test. I'm sure if YK played that same game over he'd play a little different knowing how Kurt was able to take out Sue.


Oh and Blob isn't dodging...he's just soaking up the hits without taking damage...probably not a good comparison here.

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  #91  
Old February 8th, 2018, 09:28 PM
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Re: The Book of Nightcrawler (Kurt Wagner) (II) (Public Play

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkham View Post
Now if we need to cut something, I'd dump his attack down to 2, making him less of an offensive threat and instead super mobile and support. Keep in mind, KD has 4 defense and blocks all damage on 1 blank. This Nightcrawler is meant to surpass that.

Auto-wounders, heavy hitters, ranged multi-attackers, and lockdown units will still generally have his number.
I missed part of this earlier...Yeah I like KD being more aggressive and KWII being a defensive support unit. Two opposite sides of the same coin. Very fitting. IF (intentional caps) he needs something more than a price bump, I'd be ok with that.

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  #92  
Old February 8th, 2018, 09:33 PM
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Re: The Book of Nightcrawler (Kurt Wagner) (II) (Public Play

Fantastic Four can certainly be just as luck driven as any, IMO. Especially when you look at what Nightcrawler did. Sure, he took out Sue(not really difficult for any figure with decent movement), but his wounds on Thing if I’m reading right, came from 2 botches on Thing’s behalf. So...

As for the Blob comparison...I was comparing effectiveness for their respective costs. Blob has 6 life, 5 defense, 5 attack, locks you down, and has double shields(twice as common as blanks) against normal attacks. So for Nightcrawler to have the defense capability he has with 4 life doesn’t seem unreasonable. Also, as I pointed out, Kurt D. blocks all damage with 1 blank at 4 defense, so a 5 defense with blanks as doubles doesn’t seem that crazy to me.

But alas, we’ll see. The common complaint of Nightcrawler I is his durability, reliability, and lack of mobile support. So I’d rather this one focus on those aspects and take a points bump or offensive nerf if it came to it. No sense in risking this one’s survivability.
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  #93  
Old February 9th, 2018, 12:02 AM
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Re: The Book of Nightcrawler (Kurt Wagner) (II) (Public Play

I’ll try to get a set of tests in this weekend to maybe wrap this up if it’s just a point bump that’s needed, if anything. I’ll run 1 against the F4 just to see how it goes.
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  #94  
Old February 10th, 2018, 03:39 PM
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Re: The Book of Nightcrawler (II) (Initial Playtesting)

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT Nightcrawler (Kurt Wagner) II

___________________________________________________________

Army Test 1
Map: Custom
Units:
Nightcrawler II(205), Captain Britain(285), Shadowcat II(170), Sage(190) (850)
vs.
Luke Cage(190), Iron Fist(260), Tigra(170), Shang-Chi(230) (850)
Spoiler Alert!


___________________________________________________________

Army Test 2
Map: Custom
Units:
Nightcrawler II(200), Bane(190), Star-Lord(250), Invisible Woman(215) (850)
vs.
Luke Cage(190), Iron Fist(260), Tigra(170), Shang-Chi(230) (850)
Spoiler Alert!


___________________________________________________________

THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: Nightcrawler definitely feels Nightcrawlery, which is fantastic. Is he the offensive star of the show? Well, he can do a lot of 1-2 wounds here and there when surrounded by attack boosters, but I think you'll find better figures to build your army around attack wise at a similar point level. If the 2 losses here shows anything, it's that he's good at defending/dodging damage, great at moving your figures around the way you want and getting himself where he needs to be, and decent at some smaller hits if the support is there. I think he feels as close to perfect as I'd want or expect him to be performance wise. He didn't get the win in either game here, but that's because I was relying on him 100% to be the damage dealer in both games, and that's likely not the best role for him.
He can certainly do it if needed, but it's not what he's going to be best for.
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  #95  
Old February 10th, 2018, 03:41 PM
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Re: The Book of Nightcrawler (Kurt Wagner) (II) (Public Play

I'm thinking 200-210 is appropriate here. Thoughts/preference from those who tested him? @Ronin @Yodaking
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  #96  
Old February 10th, 2018, 03:43 PM
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Re: The Book of Nightcrawler (Kurt Wagner) (II) (Public Play

I think that's probably okay, yeah. I know Soundwarp has said he's run everything that's in test right now and just hasn't written things up yet. He may have some impressions as well.
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