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  #2197  
Old March 23rd, 2018, 12:45 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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The way that would apply for fans of the SoV, I suppose, is that when there's a nominee you really like then you grab the mini and hope for the best. I've done that myself, for SoV nominees I really liked.
And it’s an inherent issue of the SoV. I’m not sure it can be fixed (though if there’s a way to do it, it would be worth exploring), but when a design is submitted, the availability might be great, but usually it takes about a year or longer for SoV submissions to be decided on, let alone approving it, which if it was going to be resubmitted after not passing...by then availability could have died. I know it’s the nature of the beast, and I agree C3V does the right thing to prerelease the minis...I guess it’s just frustrating for SoV submissions that don’t have that luxury. This Templar design is worth it to try and submit...except that I didn’t know Paizo changed their policy...so we appreciate the feedback, we’ll likely just keep it in our own customs list.

Thank you and carry on...
Originally availability was checked at review time. That is, each reviewer would verify there were enough around when they wrote their review. We decided that was a disservice to the submitters, because, as you noted, it can take quite a while to get through the SoV process.
Are you saying a second submission of the same design is no longer required to meet the availability requirements of a first submision ?

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  #2198  
Old March 23rd, 2018, 12:51 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

No, although that should be taken into consideration.

In the original process, each judge wrote their review and checked availability at the time of review. This led to some miniatures running out of stock during the review process and failing for that reason, which was unfair to the creators.
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  #2199  
Old March 23rd, 2018, 12:59 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

So if Paizo is going to release a new set of figures and I pull together a common squad design (for example), and I submit it prior to the release Of the actual minis...that’s okay? Or I submit the design as soon as the pack is released? I mean... that’s cool and all...but that also doesn’t seem practical or wise when there’s no saying what the availability will be like as the pack is released into the market.

I wish it were that way... but I don’t see that flying

EDIT: in other words (with my example), had I submitted the Templars upon release of the minis...the design could have passed?

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  #2200  
Old March 23rd, 2018, 12:59 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Oh understood.

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  #2201  
Old March 23rd, 2018, 01:01 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
So if Paizo is going to release a new set of figures and I pull together a common squad design (for example), and I submit it prior to the release Of the actual minis...that’s okay? Or I submit the design as soon as the pack is released? I mean... that’s cool and all...but that also doesn’t seem practical or wise when there’s no saying what the availability will be like as the pack is released into the market.

I wish it were that way... but I don’t see that flying
If they're common figures, and you submit them within a few weeks of release, or before release, I'd consider that as good availability.

If people want them, they can buy them.

Yes, availability would have been okay (for me at least) if you submitted this design before release.
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  #2202  
Old March 23rd, 2018, 01:51 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
Are you saying a second submission of the same design is no longer required to meet the availability requirements of a first submision ?
That's a bit of a gray area. Technically it's a new submission, but we give a lot more leeway if it's a resubmit.
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  #2203  
Old March 23rd, 2018, 01:56 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
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Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
So if Paizo is going to release a new set of figures and I pull together a common squad design (for example), and I submit it prior to the release Of the actual minis...that’s okay? Or I submit the design as soon as the pack is released? I mean... that’s cool and all...but that also doesn’t seem practical or wise when there’s no saying what the availability will be like as the pack is released into the market.

I wish it were that way... but I don’t see that flying
If they're common figures, and you submit them within a few weeks of release, or before release, I'd consider that as good availability.

If people want them, they can buy them.

Yes, availability would have been okay (for me at least) if you submitted this design before release.
Good to know for future submissions.

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  #2204  
Old March 23rd, 2018, 07:12 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
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Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
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Creators should bear in mind that an excellent unit was *just* bounced in the C3V stage because it was so clearly built to give synergy to a cherished existing unit.
Not going to lie, I don't like this. If the unit was really "Excellent" as you say, then I'm starting to see the C3V in a new light. I don't know the whole story, but I sincerely hope that there were legitimate reasons other than that synergy.
Am I the only voter? If a unit is well crafted - excellent, even - but plainly exists only as a patch to an existing unit, is that not enough to vote against?

I only speak for myself, you do not know how I voted, and a vote against an excellent unnecessary patch is still a reasonable vote against an “excellent” unit.
Sorry. I wrote this right before going to sleep, so I didn't word it with a lot of tact. I'm just not happy that there's the appearance of a bias against units that have synergy, or bonding. If there's are other issues, or if the synergy is poorly done, then I can understand it, but it looks like some members will oppose anything with synergy, just because it has synergy. I don't mean to single you out, but more to state that, that looks bad from my point of view.

Of course I just had my SoV submission rejected, and I'm a little disappointed, so there's probably some salt seeping through because of that. I'm sorry if my post came off too abrasive, though it was in response to you, it was intended to be directed at the C3V/SoV in general, not specifically at you..
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  #2205  
Old March 23rd, 2018, 07:33 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
If there's are other issues, or if the synergy is poorly done, then I can understand it,
You pretty much nailed it right there. Poorly executed synergy will especially be hammered on. Because units with synergy have so much potential to be influential, they will often pull a very critical eye.
Quote:
but it looks like some members will oppose anything with synergy, just because it has synergy.
Unless it's completely unneeded (like someone with Large Vydar Soulborg Bonding or Merciful Kyrie bonding), people aren't just going to oppose synergy because it's there. They will pay close attention to it and be more critical of it, again, because of how influential it is on the game. But I don't think anyone in the C3V or SoV is a straight up synergy hater. We just want to see it done well, and there are a lot of opinions on what "done well" looks like. Which isn't a bad thing, IMO.

As for the Templars, I am bummed to see that Paizo changed their game, as I was excited for them (particularly for Elyas, because I think he's pretty sick, and for the team game potential with the Infantry). But it can't be helped. We'll just wait until Pathfinder launches their "Knights, Knights Everywhere" line. Thanks for the input on the design from those who gave it!

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  #2206  
Old March 23rd, 2018, 07:55 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Honestly, even if the availability were okay, I'd have issue with using those figures for a historical unit... well, one of them. Fact is, no way in hell would the historical Templar have allowed a woman to join their order and fight alongside them - that would just never have flown in the Middle Ages. (They also wouldn't have had anyone riding a griffin, but that could be explained by exposure to new species to tame while in Valhalla... the gender issue can't.) I'm saying this as a woman myself, just to make it clear that there is no hint of sexism in what I'm saying, and the ability to play as a female knight sounds fun to me... but I say this as a woman who loves history, and would wish to see historical accuracy preserved as much as possible in this game, and this would be a fairly glaring inaccuracy.

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Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
Creators should bear in mind that an excellent unit was *just* bounced in the C3V stage because it was so clearly built to give synergy to a cherished existing unit.
Not going to lie, I don't like this. If the unit was really "Excellent" as you say, then I'm starting to see the C3V in a new light. I don't know the whole story, but I sincerely hope that there were legitimate reasons other than that synergy.
Am I the only voter? If a unit is well crafted - excellent, even - but plainly exists only as a patch to an existing unit, is that not enough to vote against?

I only speak for myself, you do not know how I voted, and a vote against an excellent unnecessary patch is still a reasonable vote against an “excellent” unit.
Sorry. I wrote this right before going to sleep, so I didn't word it with a lot of tact. I'm just not happy that there's the appearance of a bias against units that have synergy, or bonding. If there's are other issues, or if the synergy is poorly done, then I can understand it, but it looks like some members will oppose anything with synergy, just because it has synergy. I don't mean to single you out, but more to state that, that looks bad from my point of view.

Of course I just had my SoV submission rejected, and I'm a little disappointed, so there's probably some salt seeping through because of that. I'm sorry if my post came off too abrasive, though it was in response to you, it was intended to be directed at the C3V/SoV in general, not specifically at you..
Join the club - VC tends to follow weird rules and random whims. It's always felt elitist, unwelcoming and cliquey to me, and any criticism of it seems to be dismissed out of hand.


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  #2207  
Old March 23rd, 2018, 10:24 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop


Well met!

I don’t agree with and/or understand what I read herein, or in related threads, but I very much appreciate the feedback I’ve gotten. I am still hopeful that a reworked version of the Drow Assassin will soon grace SoV’s list. As for my own designs, availability is the major sticking point. Hopefully, a fortuitous confluence of cool available figure and cool design will come to me . . .

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  #2208  
Old March 23rd, 2018, 10:53 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog View Post
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If there's are other issues, or if the synergy is poorly done, then I can understand it,
You pretty much nailed it right there. Poorly executed synergy will especially be hammered on. Because units with synergy have so much potential to be influential, they will often pull a very critical eye.
I understand that, and I am not completely against that...

Quote:
Quote:
but it looks like some members will oppose anything with synergy, just because it has synergy.
Unless it's completely unneeded (like someone with Large Vydar Soulborg Bonding or Merciful Kyrie bonding), people aren't just going to oppose synergy because it's there. They will pay close attention to it and be more critical of it, again, because of how influential it is on the game. But I don't think anyone in the C3V or SoV is a straight up synergy hater. We just want to see it done well, and there are a lot of opinions on what "done well" looks like. Which isn't a bad thing, IMO.
The problem seems to be that everyone has their own idea of what "done well" is. Some people don't like Kantono Daishi or Master Lao Xin, because they act as an order marker hub for everything in their army. Does this mean they aren't well designed, or that they don't play well? No. But I know that they received push back. A design that for most might seem completely reasonable, and well made to the outside community, could for the C3V team appear as unnecessary, or poorly thought out.

In regards to the Assassin I designed. The general consensus from what I saw in the community was to give them bonding. I thought that creating a bonding unit with some interesting twists would be a great way to do this without going to obvious full bonding route. There were even a few comments in this thread when I posted her here, that stated they originally thought they just needed bonding. The Competitive Unit Congress (CUC) even added straight up normal hero bonding to the Deepwyrm (with no price change I might add) which was a much more powerful buff to the Drow than the Assassin was. The Assassin was created to make Drow more fun to play, and synergy is really the only way to do that. The version of the Assassin that I am currently testing no longer has bonding, but honestly if "an overly overt way to beef up the Drow", is the reason it didn't pass initially, then I don't think I can expect this current rendition to pass either, because it still buffs the Drow army. This is a pessimistic way of thinking, and I'm much too excited by the Assassin to let this stop me from trying, but I honestly feel that I have to completely change the design of the Assassin to work around this. This was part of why I asked if I could see the relevant parts of the internal conversation, so that I could see exactly what I would need to change, and to better work around the individual concerns of the members that down voted it.

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Join the club - VC tends to follow weird rules and random whims. It's always felt elitist, unwelcoming and cliquey to me, and any criticism of it seems to be dismissed out of hand.
I agree to an extent. Not every member seems elitists to me, and I even regularly message some of them with design ideas, because I value their feedback. Unfortunately the group as whole does come off that way. It doesn't help when it feels like it comes down to the whims of each individual member's perception of what exactly is "overly overt".
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