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  #253  
Old May 18th, 2020, 03:58 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Editing

I agree. Let’s find out for sure if bringing back the same hero twice is a problem before we devote lots of wording to stopping it.
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  #254  
Old May 18th, 2020, 08:21 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Editing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Here's a quick pass at simplifying it a bit:
Quote:
LAST WILL
At the start of any round, before placing Order Markers, you may choose one of your previously destroyed small or medium Unique Heroes. Place or remove wounds from that Hero's Army Card so that it has 1 Life remaining and replace an Honored Soul-Guide that you control with the chosen hero. At the end of the round, destroy that Unique Hero.
I can get behind that for the sake of simplicity. Let's see where it goes.


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Last edited by NecroBlade; May 18th, 2020 at 08:22 PM. Reason: including to the OP
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  #255  
Old May 20th, 2020, 09:17 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Editing

There was more discussion on the Discord about Last Will, which led me to this variation:

LAST WILL
Before placing Order Markers at the start of any round, you may choose one of your previously destroyed figures. Until the end of the round, change the Move, Range, Attack, and Defense numbers of the Honored Soul-Guides’ card to the numbers on that figure’s card. At the end of the round, destroy the Honored Soul-Guides.


It solves a lot of issues that we were having.
  • No more reviving figures (keeping track of Spirit power placements)
  • No need for negation (can't abuse powers you don't have*)
  • No need to add or remove wound markers (HSGs have 1 Life by default)
  • No need for marking figures (just put the chosen card next to the HSGs as a reminder)
  • No longer matters if you can choose the same figure twice (you only choose one, but if both HSG are alive you get two copies at once)
  • Keeping Stealth Flying and all other attributes of HSGs is like channeling the dead figure's spirit
  • Turnable dials beyond points include: choosing Small/Medium/Unique/Hero only, one turn vs whole round, start of turn vs start of round

*
Spoiler Alert!


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  #256  
Old May 20th, 2020, 09:27 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Editing

I like that direction a lot. My main thought is that it should just change one stat, not all four, to keep their other stats as relevant and useful dials to tweak. Probably attack would be the stat to tie to last will if we went that route. I would also be fine with only destroying one Soulguide at the end of the round, as that at least gives the opponent an incentive on later OMs to attack them if there are still 2 up while still being a significant hit to a 2-man squad.
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  #257  
Old May 21st, 2020, 07:19 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Editing

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
  • No more reviving figures (keeping track of Spirit power placements)
  • No need for negation (can't abuse powers you don't have*)
  • No need to add or remove wound markers (HSGs have 1 Life by default)
  • No need for marking figures (just put the chosen card next to the HSGs as a reminder)
  • No longer matters if you can choose the same figure twice (you only choose one, but if both HSG are alive you get two copies at once)
  • Keeping Stealth Flying and all other attributes of HSGs is like channeling the dead figure's spirit
  • Turnable dials beyond points include: choosing Small/Medium/Unique/Hero only, one turn vs whole round, start of turn vs start of round
Is this the extent of the discussion on the Discord, or was there anything else? It sounds like there's some concern about Spirit power placements--do you mind elaborating on that?

I'm concerned about essentially turning any statline into a 2-man Stealth Flying squad. With 1 life, it probably isn't broken, but stuff like Su-Bak-Na would allow for these guys to get two attacks of 7 in on pretty much anything within 6 spaces.

I also feel like the theme is pretty much lost if the Soul-Guides stay on the board. They're channeling the spirit, but it loses a lot of the cool factor of returning figures to the board. That's a relatively minor thing overall, but "reviving" figures with some constraints does feel more intuitive than partially transforming a Soul-Guide into that figure.
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  #258  
Old May 21st, 2020, 08:54 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Editing

I see the appeal here from a simplicity standpoint. And also from a balance standpoint. I won't oppose this change although I think it is a bummer to sacrifice what we had before really putting it through its paces.

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  #259  
Old May 24th, 2020, 08:20 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Editing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
  • No more reviving figures (keeping track of Spirit power placements)
  • No need for negation (can't abuse powers you don't have*)
  • No need to add or remove wound markers (HSGs have 1 Life by default)
  • No need for marking figures (just put the chosen card next to the HSGs as a reminder)
  • No longer matters if you can choose the same figure twice (you only choose one, but if both HSG are alive you get two copies at once)
  • Keeping Stealth Flying and all other attributes of HSGs is like channeling the dead figure's spirit
  • Turnable dials beyond points include: choosing Small/Medium/Unique/Hero only, one turn vs whole round, start of turn vs start of round
Is this the extent of the discussion on the Discord, or was there anything else? It sounds like there's some concern about Spirit power placements--do you mind elaborating on that?

I'm concerned about essentially turning any statline into a 2-man Stealth Flying squad. With 1 life, it probably isn't broken, but stuff like Su-Bak-Na would allow for these guys to get two attacks of 7 in on pretty much anything within 6 spaces.

I also feel like the theme is pretty much lost if the Soul-Guides stay on the board. They're channeling the spirit, but it loses a lot of the cool factor of returning figures to the board. That's a relatively minor thing overall, but "reviving" figures with some constraints does feel more intuitive than partially transforming a Soul-Guide into that figure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
I see the appeal here from a simplicity standpoint. And also from a balance standpoint. I won't oppose this change although I think it is a bummer to sacrifice what we had before really putting it through its paces.
This idea came about as an alternative because there was discussion of Reviving and placing figures with Spirits (Viking Champions and the artist-formerly-known-as-Atrixus) to give multiple figures the boost (or de-buff). To be fair, while we agreed this was the case, no one as yet has pointed to the specific ruling. However, to fix that issue, we'd have to do this (which some felt was complicating the power further, though I disagree):

LAST WILL
At the start of any round, before placing Order Markers, you may choose one of your previously destroyed small or medium Unique Heroes. Place or remove wounds from that Hero's Army Card so that it has 1 Life remaining and replace an Honored Soul-Guide that you control with the chosen hero. At the end of the round, negate that Hero's powers for the entire game, then destroy that Unique Hero.

That's a workable solution and absolutely should be tested before any more drastic changes. My apologies for skipping to the alternative, and I'll refrain from commenting on it until it comes to making that change if it's necessary. So, for now, what do we think about the negation fix to the current version?


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  #260  
Old May 24th, 2020, 08:53 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Editing

I'm with caps, I really want to test the current version and only move to yours (which I think is a good second choice) if we really need to.

The core of the problem is using the revival to "move" the Soul to another card, is that right?
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  #261  
Old May 24th, 2020, 09:07 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Editing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
I'm with caps, I really want to test the current version and only move to yours (which I think is a good second choice) if we really need to.

The core of the problem is using the revival to "move" the Soul to another card, is that right?
That’s one problem. Using them with Krug-like units will also be an issue, but then you also have Deathwalker 9000 who is a headache to kill (statistically), Deathwalker 7000 who’s self-destruct could really be unfun (and who is also hard to kill), Raelin 1, who is also unfun. And I’m sure I’ll be able to find more.

And that’s not even considering what could still be designed. After 2 tests, I am not proposing we wheel back to design, just that we proceed with caution.

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  #262  
Old May 24th, 2020, 09:32 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Editing

Extra "lives" for Raelin does sound pretty gross to play against. The question would then be if their point value can accommodate for that enough without making them too expensive for other armies. But that is probably not the best use of the power--just an obnoxious one--so I would rephrase the question as "is bringing Raelin back so unfun to play against that no point value can compensate for it"

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  #263  
Old May 24th, 2020, 10:43 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Editing

I think just for one round really reduces the burden. One turn eliminates it, though I know we had problems with just one turn activation.
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  #264  
Old May 24th, 2020, 10:53 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] HONORED SOUL-GUIDES (Lantern Geists) - Editing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
I'm with caps, I really want to test the current version and only move to yours (which I think is a good second choice) if we really need to.

The core of the problem is using the revival to "move" the Soul to another card, is that right?
I had a small discussion with fs on the discord and realized that I can't for the life of me find the exact ruling on how these powers interact. It should be an interaction that exists in classic with Sturla, but I can't find it.

What worries me is if the interaction treats placing the figure on the army card as a reminder, not as the source of the power. If that's the case, Velkhor would not only be able to curse multiple targets, his curse would be able to affect them simultaneously, as it would not end on the first target when his figure is removed from their card. I don't actually know if this is the correct read, but it's one I've heard others imply is correct, and I just can't find where that originates from.

I'm a hard no on the interaction described above being present in the set, but willing to test these guys if it's not the case. If anyone knows the interaction for certain that would help me a lot.
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