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  #193  
Old October 12th, 2018, 04:06 PM
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Re: Sir Heroscape's customs

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The only problem I see with this, is that you can't move your other shadow figures either. There isn't a current iteration of the Binder with a d20 roll required, so I can't see how wordy the card is, but compare it to the Zettian Deathwings to see if you can fit in "or a 16 or higher if the figure has the flying, or Stealth Flying ability".
Current versions are in the OP. The Binder does require a D20 roll to get the Grab. But I do agree with you that the Grabbing of one's own shadow figures is a big plus for the design of this group. Can't tell you how key a couple turns have been where I catapulted up a Demon or Hound by using the Grab...it's pretty cool when it works and makes things really fun and interesting.

Not as easy as I thought
Looking at it's card, I think you could fit the higher roll on flying/stealth flying without getting too wordy. Just look at the space on the Drow Chainfighter. Hide in Darkness takes up a lot more space than Phantom Walk does.

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You do have a point, but I also agree with your previous estimation that it would be unnecessarily hurting these guys to keep them from grabbing phantom knights, minions and other pesky squad units with flying.

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  #194  
Old October 12th, 2018, 04:13 PM
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Re: Sir Heroscape's customs

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You do have a point, but I also agree with your previous estimation that it would be unnecessarily hurting these guys to keep them from grabbing phantom knights, minions and other pesky squad units with flying.
A 16 or higher would make it less consistent, but still worth trying for. It would still allow Raelin, but she won't be as valuable, and you'll end up wasting turns trying to move her around when you could have been attacking, or developing. A failed grab on an enemy could still let you attack them. A failed grab on Raelin is just a wasted turn. It will also lead to moments where you are planning to have her moved, but she doesn't, and you loose advantage because of that. I think it's a good balance between allowing you to grab flying, but making it harder to reliably rely on Raelin being in position, unless you just use an order marker on her.
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  #195  
Old October 12th, 2018, 04:18 PM
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Re: Sir Heroscape's customs

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You do have a point, but I also agree with your previous estimation that it would be unnecessarily hurting these guys to keep them from grabbing phantom knights, minions and other pesky squad units with flying.
A 16 or higher would make it less consistent, but still worth trying for. It would still allow Raelin, but she won't be as valuable, and you'll end up wasting turns trying to move her around when you could have been attacking, or developing. A failed grab on an enemy could still let you attack them. A failed grab on Raelin is just a wasted turn. It will also lead to moments where you are planning to have her moved, but she doesn't, and you loose advantage because of that. I think it's a good balance between allowing you to grab flying, but making it harder to reliably rely on Raelin being in position, unless you just use an order marker on her.
Okay, I see what you're saying. I think that could be a happy medium then. I see the merit in it because any other option would limit the designs playability and potency. Ill have to think on this a little more.

Sorry to rope you into this @Scytale (and/or @Dad_Scaper ) but I'm curious for your opinion on a situation like this with the Binder and trying to limit Raelin (indirectly) but all flying figures (directly) from being grabbed, either at all or at a much higher risk?

EDIT: and of course others feel free to chime in.

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  #196  
Old October 12th, 2018, 04:34 PM
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Re: Sir Heroscape's customs

Moving your own units around with Binders is cool, but is that really what you want the faction to be? It sounds like it's a neat side-effect of the design, not your intended direction. While those can be good sometimes, your shadow faction has lots of uniqueness already. This self-moving part seems more of a distraction from the true focus and should serve as the core of faction, not another factor.


So I recommend limiting it to enemy units only.
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  #197  
Old October 12th, 2018, 05:24 PM
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Re: Sir Heroscape's customs

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Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Moving your own units around with Binders is cool, but is that really what you want the faction to be? It sounds like it's a neat side-effect of the design, not your intended direction. While those can be good sometimes, your shadow faction has lots of uniqueness already. This self-moving part seems more of a distraction from the true focus and should serve as the core of faction, not another factor.


So I recommend limiting it to enemy units only.
I haven't followed this faction or this unit in particular as closely as Scy has, but in general I think this is a good piece of advice. Deliver the theme, without ornamentation.

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  #198  
Old October 12th, 2018, 05:31 PM
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Re: Sir Heroscape's customs

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Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Moving your own units around with Binders is cool, but is that really what you want the faction to be? It sounds like it's a neat side-effect of the design, not your intended direction. While those can be good sometimes, your shadow faction has lots of uniqueness already. This self-moving part seems more of a distraction from the true focus and should serve as the core of faction, not another factor.


So I recommend limiting it to enemy units only.
I haven't followed this faction or this unit in particular as closely as Scy has, but in general I think this is a good piece of advice. Deliver the theme, without ornamentation.
With their recommendations in mind, I say up Xundar's move to 6, so that when you do move him, you can make it count, and then limit the grab to enemy units.
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  #199  
Old October 12th, 2018, 09:12 PM
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Re: Sir Heroscape's customs

I was thinking the same as those guys limiting the movement with the binders to enemy units only. That is a simple approach that doesnt hurt your theme either. The binders seem like a unit that comes out of the shadows to grab its enemies. I feel it loses a little flavor when the tentacles lovingly lift its allies to different spaces. I like the idea of being able to move ally figures but it doesnt fit as much here. It could, but you already have enough going on with them to make them awesome.

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  #200  
Old October 13th, 2018, 11:07 AM
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Sir Heroscape Sir Heroscape is offline
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Re: Sir Heroscape's customs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Moving your own units around with Binders is cool, but is that really what you want the faction to be? It sounds like it's a neat side-effect of the design, not your intended direction. While those can be good sometimes, your shadow faction has lots of uniqueness already. This self-moving part seems more of a distraction from the true focus and should serve as the core of faction, not another factor.


So I recommend limiting it to enemy units only.
I appreciate the insight. Initially I had it just be opponents figures until I discovered some really cool options with grabbing your own figures. Leaving it at just opponents would definitely simplify the design and eliminate the issues I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
I haven't followed this faction or this unit in particular as closely as Scy has, but in general I think this is a good piece of advice. Deliver the theme, without ornamentation.
Yeah, I'm glad I asked...I just wanted to see a couple more viewpoints on it. Thank you!

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Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
With their recommendations in mind, I say up Xundar's move to 6, so that when you do move him, you can make it count, and then limit the grab to enemy units.
I think I agree with you here.

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Originally Posted by TREX View Post
I was thinking the same as those guys limiting the movement with the binders to enemy units only. That is a simple approach that doesnt hurt your theme either. The binders seem like a unit that comes out of the shadows to grab its enemies. I feel it loses a little flavor when the tentacles lovingly lift its allies to different spaces. I like the idea of being able to move ally figures but it doesnt fit as much here. It could, but you already have enough going on with them to make them awesome.
Well said, I think that image you painted makes the most sense so far. haha, "lovingly lift"... that made me realize that yeah this might not be the vision I'm looking for for these Binders.

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  #201  
Old October 13th, 2018, 01:24 PM
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Re: Sir Heroscape's customs

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Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
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With their recommendations in mind, I say up Xundar's move to 6, so that when you do move him, you can make it count, and then limit the grab to enemy units.
I think I agree with you here.
I don't know, Xundar isn't really bad at all with 5. Not having to have clear sight to the figures he activates is huge, and he has a low roll to summon Shadows back. I don't think he needs to be any better on his own turn. Not that I'm opposed to 6 move necessarily, but if you're trying to make his turns "count" I don't think anything more needs to be done with so many strengths and so few weaknesses already -- he's probably pushing 140 with his powerset as-is compared to Kurrok.

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  #202  
Old October 13th, 2018, 03:37 PM
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Re: Sir Heroscape's customs

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With their recommendations in mind, I say up Xundar's move to 6, so that when you do move him, you can make it count, and then limit the grab to enemy units.
I think I agree with you here.
I don't know, Xundar isn't really bad at all with 5. Not having to have clear sight to the figures he activates is huge, and he has a low roll to summon Shadows back. I don't think he needs to be any better on his own turn. Not that I'm opposed to 6 move necessarily, but if you're trying to make his turns "count" I don't think anything more needs to be done with so many strengths and so few weaknesses already -- he's probably pushing 140 with his powerset as-is compared to Kurrok.
Idk about 140. He's already 10 more than Kurrok, and Kurrok has a few small advantages over him. Xundar has less defense, making him an easier target to kill, and Kurrok can attack when he summons, while Xundar cannot. I do think that the roll to revive should be raised, especially since it has potential to be lowered based on the map. I don't think it should be higher than Kurrok's though. If the price were to be raised above 130, I think that the army would need to play better, and more consistently than the Fire Elemental army. The Fire Elementals have better stats than any of the shadows, and they give auto wounds to everything engaged with any of them, even ones that aren't activated that turn. I don't thank the Shadow army is as good as that.
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  #203  
Old October 13th, 2018, 05:04 PM
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Re: Sir Heroscape's customs

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Idk about 140. He's already 10 more than Kurrok, and Kurrok has a few small advantages over him. Xundar has less defense, making him an easier target to kill, and Kurrok can attack when he summons, while Xundar cannot. I do think that the roll to revive should be raised, especially since it has potential to be lowered based on the map. I don't think it should be higher than Kurrok's though. If the price were to be raised above 130, I think that the army would need to play better, and more consistently than the Fire Elemental army. The Fire Elementals have better stats than any of the shadows, and they give auto wounds to everything engaged with any of them, even ones that aren't activated that turn. I don't thank the Shadow army is as good as that.
I feel like those advantages are very small. 5L/3D is only a bit better than 6L/2D, and if Kurrok is attacking before he summons you're probably in big trouble anyway. Xundar also doesn't care as much about either of those with being able to hide behind cover and control the army -- lower survivability doesn't matter if you can't get hit. If the roll to summon changed, maybe he'd be closer to equal, but right now he's just better (which isn't a bad thing, it keeps him from just being Kurrok 2.0, but should be noted in points). And Shadows are more consistent than Firestorm to an extent because their commander is almost always safe, whereas Kurrok has to expose himself to take turns with Elementals (though overall, they are different playstyles and tough to compare straight-on).

If Fire Elementals have better stats than Shadows then I feel that will be reflected in their own cost, not Kurrok/Xundar's (overall - of course sometimes things bleed over). It is worth noting, though, that the shadows have a lot more utility, even if they're behind on stats, and can easily be boosted by each other. Xundar's cost will be based primarily on his usefulness as a commander, and by not having to see to believe, he's pretty useful.


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  #204  
Old October 13th, 2018, 05:52 PM
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Re: Sir Heroscape's customs

Yeah I agree a point increase is in order at 130pts, but also keep in mind another restriction he has is that he cannot summon if he is engaged. Kurrok can both attack AND summon and in order to Summon Xundar has to be unengaged, which in end game scenarios can force him to have to disengage and take wounds. He really isn't worth any more than 130pts. I also agree with Leaf_it's estimation about this army not being as competive as the Kurrok firestorm. This army in no way operates like that army and is VERY unique in the way it works together. So far out of my 7 playtests, I've only had this army win 2 times and that's against some not particularly competitive armies (almost lost to Gorillinators). Right now as they stand, I think they are at a good spot. Any increased pricing or other limitations would just hurt these guys too much. I haven't even played them against super strong competitive armies yet, especially range which indicates that these guys so far aren't broken, but rather playing at a really good spot. Truth is...it's not bad to make good, strong units either. I mean, if they've struggled to win after all these playtests against B+ or less armies than I see no issue with the current design...especially when the playtests before ALSO allowed Binders to move my own figures and XUndar at 120. that is no longer the case, which makes them even less strong (though arguably more thematic)

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