Justice League Design *Brainstorming*

[Arkham]

Now, if you want to run with it as its own design, and not tied onto Martian Manhunter, one way to go would be(using your power examples) and example point values:

JUSTICE LEAGUE
Before drafting any figures, you may use the Justice League team card. If you use this card, when drafting figures for your army, you must apply the points required for each figure, in addition to their normal cost.

• Cyborg, 15 points: At the start of the game, before placing Order Markers, you place one Glyph of Boom Tube in any empty space in your startzone, power side up.
• Superman, 40 points: If at least one numbered Order Marker is revealed on his Army Card, all figures you control add one to their defense for the remainder of the round.
• Wonder Woman, 50 points: If at least one numbered Order Marker is revealed on her Army Card, all figures you control add one to their attack for the remainder of the round.
• Batman, 20 points: Once per round you may reveal the “X” Order Marker on his card and rearrange any unrevealed Order Markers on any Army Cards you control.
• Flash, 20 points: If at least one numbered Order Marker is revealed on his Army Card, all figures you control move one additional space for the remainder of the round.
• Green Lantern, 10 points: If at least one numbered Order Marker is revealed on his Army Card, all figures you control with a Range Number of 4 or higher add one to their range for the remainder of the round.
• Martian Manhunter, 20 points: If at least one numbered Order Marker is revealed on his Army Card, an opponent may not take temporary or permanent control of any of your figures for the remainder of the round.
• Aquaman, 15 points: If at least one numbered Order Marker is revealed on his Army Card, add 1 to any 20-sided die roll for the remainder of the round.

So while drafting, I'd immediately know what to add to each hero in order to adjust each point cost accordingly. Aquaman I is now 245 points to add to my army. So on and so forth. Individually, they aren't a big difference, but together you could be adding an additional 100 to your point value. So it adds up.

I'm not exactly 100% behind all those power examples though, but as initial example suggestions they aren't bad. I wouldn't want them all tied to Order Markers though, as they are stepping on each other's toes rather than working together, as you'd hope.

[Arkham]

This is the part where certain people need to chime in and express approval or disapproval on the proposed directions, before we wander down a dead end again. No so much on the actual powers listed, but on the concepts/mechanics in general. We've got a Team Card concept, as well as a Justice League class on new versions of cards concept.

dok
Trollbrute
johnny139
Viegon
Karat
quozl

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I have been deliberating on what to say here as I have an extensive background on the Justice League. I wanted to carefully plan out what I wanted to share and not jump right in.

First off, let me say that I really enjoyed the collaboration going on around this topic; it reminds me of the old, pre-World's Finest days of C3G.

Second, I didn't start out that way, but I have long been on the "Justice League is more a loose affiliation and less a team" bandwagon ever since the initial designs when it was pointed out that the Justice League band together when something is too big for one of them to tackle alone, even from their inception, unlike the Avengers which are really more a collection of heroes that live and train together. I actually feel that the current designs capture this individual heroes that work well together pretty well.

Third, I completely agree that JL is the DC version of a Greek Pantheon, in fact, Grant Morrison (one of the all time greatest writers of JL) has even said so. For those of you not in the know, Grant Morrison is the guy who made the JL cool again. They had actually killed off the series when he asked to write it. Most of the iconic tales that you know and love have come from his time on the book. War with the Angels? him. Injustice League? him. Tower of Babel? him (you might know this as Doom.) Martian Invasion? him (both times.) So, basically I think he created the idea that most of us have of JL.

That being said I think it is important to note that typically the big 3 (WW, Supes, and Bats) have sort of met and decided who gets invited and who doesn't. When the Group is already picked, Bats and J'onn serve as the team strategists. Its funny people think of Superman as the leader because he isn't, he's too self depricating. Bruce and Diana (and J'onn to a lesser extent) realize the symbol he is to the other heroes and so they try to help him maintain that. A Leader has to make tough decisions, sometimes unpopular ones, something that they don't want to see tarnish Superman's rep.

All that being said, I have to say I really like the ideas being thrown out here. I think the biggest issue that needs to be discussed and decided is this: what era are you shooting for? Do you just want to represent the core group? The Satelite era? The moon base era? The Detroit era? the Happy Harbor era? What about the JLI? Or the JL Europe? Or the Dick Grayson JL? New 52? Do you do multiple cards? Try to include everyone on one?

I think a Watchtower card that represents a sort of Marro hive, off the battlefield draftable item would be an interesting, and ultimately most inclusive, way to go.

I have seen some amazing ideas tossed around already and I look forward to reading more.

[IAmBatman]

Ways to bring the Justice League card more into play that I'm really liking here:

1. Sock's idea of making it a draftable glyph attached to a specific card (Martian Manhunter 2.0 could work, or it could be a Utility Glyph, though that would require it being balanced within an already costed figure, which might be asking too much).

2. Spidey's idea of making it a draftable destructible object: a tower or satellite you place on the playing field (though this would open me up to so many other desires, like making it inhabitable in ways that build off of Angstrom Levy, and that's probably just too much craziness for one card ).

3. Or, of course, just making it a wholly new type of draftable card, a Team Card, either with an overall set cost, or a cost breakdown based on who you include in your army (like Sock detailed above).

I'm on board with exploring any of those options that folks find most appealing, and definitely think this direction is the one that most accomplishes all purposes while (once initial challenges are hashed out) being the one that will work most efficiently to reach stated goals.

[Arkham]

I agree. I think the Team Card thus far, is the most interesting way to go. I think it is simplistic in approach, but enables so much and opens so many doors to take. If others can get on board with this idea, I believe we can bring that new synergy idea to the table, and create an all new mechanic to add to the game as a whole. Ultimately creating a unique synergy, that can be further expanded upon as desired.

Firestorm comes out? Add him to the Justice League Team Card, give him something to offer that is fitting and thematic, find the right point balance for the additional cost, and it's that simple. You don't need several new versions, you don't need a bunch of markers, you just need to put in the effort to playtest each individual character's point cost with their power taken into account, and how much that character should cost based on what that new power is.

I think it's an open ended enough book to completely encompass upwards of 50 members that are prominent enough to be featured, while giving some old dogs some new tricks. If nobody thinks _______ deserves a new version, at least this brings 1 additional power they bring to the table when using the Justice League. It's solid.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating any new terrain. I'm talking about an item off battlefield that doesn't even need a physical representation. Just a card that says how it effects your team and also explains what happens when it is the last card left in your army. (Though a picture on it would be nice, but not necessary; especially if the space is needed for verbiage.)

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

I agree. I think the Team Card thus far, is the most interesting way to go. I think it is simplistic in approach, but enables so much and opens so many doors to take. If others can get on board with this idea, I believe we can bring that new synergy idea to the table, and create an all new mechanic to add to the game as a whole. Ultimately creating a unique synergy, that can be further expanded upon as desired.

Firestorm comes out? Add him to the Justice League Team Card, give him something to offer that is fitting and thematic, find the right point balance for the additional cost, and it's that simple. You don't need several new versions, you don't need a bunch of markers, you just need to put in the effort to playtest each individual character's point cost with their power taken into account, and how much that character should cost based on what that new power is.

I think it's an open ended enough book to completely encompass upwards of 50 members that are prominent enough to be featured, while giving some old dogs some new tricks. If nobody thinks _______ deserves a new version, at least this brings 1 additional power they bring to the table when using the Justice League. It's solid.

Rather than distinctive amounts of points added for certain characters, I'd like to see this balanced so that for each member of the JLA you just add 20 points. Or 50 points. Or whatever, as long as its the same across the board.

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by Spidey'tilIDie

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating any new terrain. I'm talking about an item off battlefield that doesn't even need a physical representation. Just a card that says how it effects your team and also explains what happens when it is the last card left in your army. (Though a picture on it would be nice, but not necessary; especially if the space is needed for verbiage.)

If we're going the Team Card route, I think the simplest way is to introduce it as an all new mechanic to the meta game. Before drafting a team, you can choose to use a Team Card. When drafting figures off of the team card, their point value increases based on what is listed. So it's a fluctuating cost, dependent on who you are drafting from it, and what they actually are offering(certain powers obviously have different point value increases).

This way, it's actually doing a lot, with the smallest intrusion. No clutter of markers, no rehash of synergies, it is something completely new. The best part? It's future proof. You can always add further units to the Team Card, they just require playtesting to figure out the power's point value when added to the team.

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by Spidey'tilIDie

Rather than distinctive amounts of points added for certain characters, I'd like to see this balanced so that for each member of the JLA you just add 20 points. Or 50 points. Or whatever, as long as its the same across the board.

The issue that needs to be addressed if that's the direction you desire then, is how does a +1 to attack stack up to +1 d20 rolls, or re-arranging Order Markers etc. Are all these equal in value?

If you charge a certain amount of points for each member, and that point value is static, is that balanced? It'd be hard to justify equal costs for all powers, as well as all figures. For example, if it is agreed that it is +50 points per JLA character, who is offering a power, why is it that Green Arrow comes at the same cost increase as Superman does?

[IAmBatman]

If we're going to bother adding lines for individual costs, I think the biggest reason to do so would be to allow those costs to be truly individual, and thus stand up to playtesting. Some powers are inherently going to be more valuable than others. And that's OK!

So, Sock, what you seem to be suggesting is actually having several different physical cards, which can be added to over time, but each of which is considered a Justice League Team Card, in order to stay cohesive with the theme (and if we add special rules about how to draft them)?

So we might, for instance, release an initial one with just five powers for the big five, then later another one with five powers for, say, Martian Manhunter, Zatanna, Green Arrow, Black Canary, and Aquaman. You could reference any number of the cards during the game, having paid the drafting costs to activate the powers based on who you drafted (say I've drafted Superman and Zatanna into my army and we're playing with Team Cards: I'd just place the two relevant Justice League team cards in front of me, and be able to reference them). Does that sound about right?

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Spidey'tilIDie

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating any new terrain. I'm talking about an item off battlefield that doesn't even need a physical representation. Just a card that says how it effects your team and also explains what happens when it is the last card left in your army. (Though a picture on it would be nice, but not necessary; especially if the space is needed for verbiage.)

OK. To me this sounds like you're basically just advocating for a specific theme flair in terms of what it's called and what it's considered thematically (i.e. rather than drafting a Team Card and thematically drafting the notion of there being a Justice League, the idea itself, as it were, you're drafting a hideout that will have the same game effects?).

I suppose it works either way. Either one, really. Doesn't make a huge difference.

[laughing matter]

I don't like the idea of a team card. Iconic teams have been done before without having to introduce a brand new concept into the game, and I think this is a faction that could stand to be done one figure at a time, instead of just creating a team card (which seems very heroclix-ish to me) and calling it a day.

Edit: also Spidey is right, we need to decide which version of the Justice League is the most important to capture. I don't believe any real progress can be made otherwise