The Book of Ashigaru Yari

[Shades fan]

Originally Posted by Su_Nan

I don't think you guys know how to use them properly. You have to get 3 or more squads set up in a spear wall formation, usually in a line or cluster. These guys should never be used to rush the enemy, but instead you use them as a sort of wait then fire. Wait for melee troops or heroes to come to them and after you roll the dice, encircle.

Think history. Soldiers with spears used them to block cavalry by standing in a straight line waiting for a charge. Same goes for these guys. Set them up in mass and wait for melee to come to them. As melee engages the front lines you should be able to encircle with the back squads. Even the Greek phalanx comes to mind.

Rushing a 1 defense melee squad into battle gets them killed. With no bonding it would be difficult to get multiple squads into position to do any damage. In fact, rolling 1, 2, or even 3 defense dice pretty much gets close to the same result. You aren't going to get that many shields.

I agree with this, but the fact that a lot of units can just out range you can destroy your Yari. Which is the biggest problem with them. If they had a version of Thorian speed,they would be the greatest.

[DarkBladeCB]

Or in all melee... they're like inverse zombies! Which is kind of fun to think about.

[rdhight]

Originally Posted by Su_Nan

In fact, rolling 1, 2, or even 3 defense dice pretty much gets close to the same result. You aren't going to get that many shields.

Sure. There have been plenty of times I've rolled defense for Valiant 4th Mass and gone 0... 1... 0... crud, three guys gone.

This is theoryscape, but I suspect the best matchups for Ashigaru are against figures with the worst ratio of attacks-to-cost. Even huge single attackers like Thanos or the Silver Surfer would take more than two full rounds to kill 80 points' worth of these guys! That's just awful. The best squads for them to fight are probably the most expensive three-attack units-- Omnicrons, Microcorps, Templars, Tagawa, etc. If my minions fly in and kill three Yari, and then your Yari come back and encircle one Minion and kill him, that's like a 5-point advantage for the Yari.

Of course, since few if any tournament opponents are low on multiple attacks, I'm waiting to buy these guys myself until Kato is out.

[Su_Nan]

What I said was let the melee squads come to you. Now with the ranged squads you have to deal with them another way. If you do field them you should invest heavily in taking out the range first. I bet against all melee the yari and this tactic would do a considerable amount of damage.

Just because they have defense of 1 doesn't mean they are worthless. With that theory the venoc vipers should be even more worthless.

[rdhight]

Originally Posted by Su_Nan

What I said was let the melee squads come to you. Now with the ranged squads you have to deal with them another way. If you do field them you should invest heavily in taking out the range first. I bet against all melee the yari and this tactic would do a considerable amount of damage.

I wonder if arraying the Harquebus in front of or mixed with the Yari rather than behind them would be a good formation. If I have Yari in front and Harq behind, your range will probably stop out of range of my range and shoot at my Yari. With the Harq leaning forward, you'll have to plant yourself in their WTF kill zone to hit the Yari from range. Aw yeah.

[Gomolka]

Originally Posted by Su_Nan

What I said was let the melee squads come to you. Now with the ranged squads you have to deal with them another way. If you do field them you should invest heavily in taking out the range first. I bet against all melee the yari and this tactic would do a considerable amount of damage.

Just because they have defense of 1 doesn't mean they are worthless. With that theory the venoc vipers should be even more worthless.

Although the Yari have 1 defense, which, indisputably, is better than 0 defense, they still only have a move of 5, whereas the vipers have a move of 7, and the chance to roll a frenzy. Also, the vipers have an attack of 3, and moving from 2 attack die to 3 is definitely a big step up.

When I have attempted to use the Yari in normal battles with friends, they end up being picked off easily by squad killers, or ranged squads. When I do melee-only battles, they become vampire food. I just can not envision these guys as being a semi-decent squad. Even with the release of Kato, who is still controversially pricy, I still don't see these guys getting too much playing time. They just don't have what it takes to make worth their own point value.

I have only had them defeat more opponents than their own point value in one game where my opponent only had Raelin left, and I had the Ashigaru Yari. With a bit of luck, I defeated Raelin with an Encircle Special Attack.

However, I will not say anymore until we see how they play after the release of Kato. Also, I haven't yet played this squad in the masses such as 3 squads of them, which may work if you defeat all of your opponents ranged figures first.

[Su_Nan]

Originally Posted by Gomolka

Although the Yari have 1 defense, which, indisputably, is better than 0 defense, they still only have a move of 5, whereas the vipers have a move of 7, and the chance to roll a frenzy. Also, the vipers have an attack of 3, and moving from 2 attack die to 3 is definitely a big step up.

The earlier post by Avenger was that they are worthless only because they have a defense of 1. Most people look at them that way.

Its interesting that you say they were vampire food in an all melee army, which coincidently, is what I used them for the last time I used them.

Lets use theory scape here for kicks. You have 3 squads of yari in a line behind each other and your opponent attacks you with a squad of Izumi Samurai. Now lets say your defense fails and you lose 3 yari in the attack. On your next turn you should be able to move and encircle one samurai and kill him with encircle attack. You can then move 1 more yari into position. On the next turn you either lose 2 more yari and then encircle and kill another samurai, or you gain initiative and kill another samurai. On the last turn you lose on more yari before killing the last samurai. Take it you lose more yari in points to the samurai, but you can do the same with any unique squad.

How about having 3 or more squads in a group of 3 or more lines with Deadeye Dan in the middle of the block. Now you can pick off range while not only protecting Dan but fending off melee as well.

[Gomolka]

Originally Posted by Su_Nan

The earlier post by Avenger was that they are worthless only because they have a defense of 1. Most people look at them that way.

Its interesting that you say they were vampire food in an all melee army, which coincidently, is what I used them for the last time I used them.

Lets use theory scape here for kicks. You have 3 squads of yari in a line behind each other and your opponent attacks you with a squad of Izumi Samurai. Now lets say your defense fails and you lose 3 yari in the attack. On your next turn you should be able to move and encircle one samurai and kill him with encircle attack. You can then move 1 more yari into position. On the next turn you either lose 2 more yari and then encircle and kill another samurai, or you gain initiative and kill another samurai. On the last turn you lose on more yari before killing the last samurai. Take it you lose more yari in points to the samurai, but you can do the same with any unique squad.

How about having 3 or more squads in a group of 3 or more lines with Deadeye Dan in the middle of the block. Now you can pick off range while not only protecting Dan but fending off melee as well.

That is all way too situational to be realistic. Of course, I would have to go with the 12 Yari vs. 3 Izumi Samurai. But having 3 lines of Yari just as a meatshield / melee ward for a stronger unit?

It's when you have to use them in VERY situational occurances that you know in a active 500 point game, they are too hard to be fielded.

[rdhight]

Originally Posted by Gomolka

That is all way too situational to be realistic. Of course, I would have to go with the 12 Yari vs. 3 Izumi Samurai. But having 3 lines of Yari just as a meatshield / melee ward for a stronger unit?

If you want meatshields, why not use rats whose defense is 4 with Soulborg status and who can move without markers? If you want meatshields with more than 1 attack, why not use Blade Gruts? Even ignoring their bonding, they're the same price, same four figures, same 2 attack, but have 1 more defense die and more movement with disengage. The Yari need to use their Encircle or the Kato bonding if they're to do something these two squads can't.

[Su_Nan]

What Kato does with the yari is allow them to encircle after the harquebus clear the field of range. All though this does sound cool, I would like for Kato to allow 2 yari or 2 harquebus squads as well. This way you could encircle twice in one turn.

[ThrasherDarkrai]

Originally Posted by Su_Nan

What Kato does with the yari is allow them to encircle after the harquebus clear the field of range. All though this does sound cool, I would like for Kato to allow 2 yari or 2 harquebus squads as well. This way you could encircle twice in one turn.

True, but no one is disputing except for Sweetcurse that they will be useful with Kato. We're disputing whether they're useful without him.
You compare them with the vipers. This is silly in my eyes for the following two reasons.
A) A move of 7 to complement their 0 defense. They might die quick, but if manuevered well, they'll never even get attacked before they kill something. And god forbid that you have the Venoc Warlord with you, who is a versatile hero that turns them into 9 move monsters, making them unbelievably likely to get the first strike when used well!
B) 3 attack. The Ashigaru can get six, but only against one person as well as the fact that the Ashigaru have to completely surround that one person. I don't think I would let you do this if I had a hero. I'd get the hero away, and if I'm using a ranged one, I'll just pepper you with ranged shots while I'm at it. When they aren't using it and are attacking with 2 attack with four guys, bear in mind that 2 attack is very likely to miss. In my games, the difference between 2 attack and 3 is phenomenal, and the Vipers can get 4 if they get height. This is superior to any remotely useful offense the Yari can conjure up without Kato.

[killercactus]

Originally Posted by Bloody the Marro Stinger

True, but no one is disputing except for Sweetcurse that they will be useful with Kato. We're disputing whether they're useful without him.
You compare them with the vipers. This is silly in my eyes for the following two reasons.
A) A move of 7 to complement their 0 defense. They might die quick, but if manuevered well, they'll never even get attacked before they kill something. And god forbid that you have the Venoc Warlord with you, who is a versatile hero that turns them into 9 move monsters, making them unbelievably likely to get the first strike when used well!
B) 3 attack. The Ashigaru can get six, but only against one person as well as the fact that the Ashigaru have to completely surround that one person. I don't think I would let you do this if I had a hero. I'd get the hero away, and if I'm using a ranged one, I'll just pepper you with ranged shots while I'm at it. When they aren't using it and are attacking with 2 attack with four guys, bear in mind that 2 attack is very likely to miss. In my games, the difference between 2 attack and 3 is phenomenal, and the Vipers can get 4 if they get height. This is superior to any remotely useful offense the Yari can conjure up without Kato.

Granted that the Vipers only have 3 figures per squad, but I think Frenzy basically makes up for that 4th figure. The Vipers are much, much better than the Yari currently - we'll have to see what Kato does and how the army plays compared to the other competitive armies after wave 8 releases to know their potential.