The Book of Ant-Man (Scott Lang)

[Lazy Orang]

Okay, so that's two more Heroes in favour of Thief and opposed to Adventurer, for reasons I happen to agree with. Unless anyone else jumps in, I'm planning to go ahead with Thief. For those who'd like Scott to work with the Fan 4, then it sounds like there's definite room for a more Future Foundation based version of the character down the line, but, as johnny confirmed, that really isn't this one.

Originally Posted by johnny139

In general very happy with this design though! As I have been for a while. My only real criticism is that "Tricky" is kind of a broad personality for him, so I'll brainstorm a bit on alternatives.

Tricky is kind of broad, and it would be interesting to hear alternatives, but honestly, if Tricky's okay for Spider-Man, then I'm not really feeling the need to get fancy or reinvent the wheel here.

[japes]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Okay, so that's two more Heroes in favour of Thief and opposed to Adventurer, for reasons I happen to agree with. Unless anyone else jumps in, I'm planning to go ahead with Thief. For those who'd like Scott to work with the Fan 4, then it sounds like there's definite room for a more Future Foundation based version of the character down the line, but, as johnny confirmed, that really isn't this one.

Tricky is kind of broad, and it would be interesting to hear alternatives, but honestly, if Tricky's okay for Spider-Man, then I'm not really feeling the need to get fancy or reinvent the wheel here.

Not sure what you meant by "two more Heroes in favour of Thief". There were 3 heroes and a Sidekick that expressed concerns 1 Hero strongly for and 1 Hero fine with Thief.

Though I don't believe any of us were strongly against thief. I just started this off by asking for an effort to be put into finding an alternative. I feel I have been heard and I feel we have explored the options. Think about it now I don't think his low cost will matter one way or the other so in this case I have no issue continuing forward with Thief. But these are the kind of things I think about and it's better to raise an alarm early and have it end up being premature rather than waiting until we are several test into the design.

Thanks for humoring me.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by japes

Not sure what you meant by "two more Heroes in favour of Thief". There were 3 heroes and a Sidekick that expressed concerns 1 Hero strongly for and 1 Hero fine with Thief.

Though I don't believe any of us were strongly against thief. I just started this off by asking for an effort to be put into finding an alternative. I feel I have been heard and I feel we have explored the options. Think about it now I don't think his low cost will matter one way or the other so in this case I have no issue continuing forward with Thief. But these are the kind of things I think about and it's better to raise an alarm early and have it end up being premature rather than waiting until we are several test into the design.

Thanks for humoring me.

Yeah, the 'more' was most likely a bad choice of words on my part. I was posting that in response to Yodaking and johnny's support for that direction.
No problem, I'm glad you raised the alarm when you did - you're right, whatever direction we decided to take it, it was helpful to have that conversation before the design went any further. Now we can continue knowing that we've explored that direction and have worked out what we want to do rather than his class having been decided almost by default.

[TrollBrute]

I feel like Engineer or Avenger are better fits for him, but I'm not -and wasn't- against Thief. It's not my top choice, but I'm okay with it if it's the majority preference. Definitely against Adventurer, as this is not that version of Scott.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by TrollBrute

I feel like Engineer or Avenger are better fits for him, but I'm not -and wasn't- against Thief. It's not my top choice, but I'm okay with it if it's the majority preference. Definitely against Adventurer, as this is not that version of Scott.

I'd be specifically opposed to Engineer and Avenger, honestly - Engineer feels like a weird fit to me, and Avenger has always seemed like an odd class to me considering 99% of Avengers, including the majority of the iconic ones, don't have that class.

[TrollBrute]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

I'd be specifically opposed to Engineer and Avenger, honestly - Engineer feels like a weird fit to me, and Avenger has always seemed like an odd class to me considering 99% of Avengers, including the majority of the iconic ones, don't have that class.

Avenger is a slightly weird one, but the way I see it is it's whatever the character most identifies as. For example, guys like Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, and Peter Parker all have other parts of their lives that often take precedence over being an Avenger. For a guy like Scott Lang, when he was an Avenger, that was pretty much all he had going for him at the time.

[japes]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

I'd be specifically opposed to Engineer and Avenger, honestly - Engineer feels like a weird fit to me, and Avenger has always seemed like an odd class to me considering 99% of Avengers, including the majority of the iconic ones, don't have that class.

Out of curiosity, what is your reason for being against Engineer. Even in the movie he was an Engineer.

Mainly asking because I am an Engineer.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by japes

Out of curiosity, what is your reason for being against Engineer. Even in the movie he was an Engineer.

Mainly asking because I am an Engineer.

Because being an Engineer doesn't feel like his thing. He has engineering skills, but it isn't a word I'd ever really think of when reaching for a word to define him, the way I would for, say, Stark. It's like calling Spider-Man or Batman an Engineer - they may technically fit the bill, but it doesn't feel like it's the word you'd immediately reach for to describe them, at least not to me. Plus, nothing on the card feels indicative of being an Engineer - he didn't even make most of his own tech, just customised it slightly, from what I can find on Wikipedia.

[japes]

Tony stark, mr. Fantastic, pretty much all other scientist, physicists, lawmen, kings, queens, soldiers, generals, Hugo strange...

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by japes

Tony stark, mr. Fantastic, pretty much all other scientist, physicists, lawmen, kings, queens, soldiers, generals, Hugo strange...

Because that's usually
1) what they're actually doing in game, or
2) a large part of who they are as superheroes/villains.
It isn't just because it's their day job.

I just don't buy that this guy being an Engineer is as iconic a part of his career as being a scientist is for Ant-Man. Spider-Man isn't a Student or a Scientist, because he's more iconic as a Crime Fighter. This guy is more iconically likely to be thought of as a Thief.

~Lazy Orang, who'll probably have to go to bed pretty soon.

EDIT: Plus, being an Engineer has nothing in common with the design.

[Yodaking]

I understand and agree with what Lazy is trying to say here. When you open up a comic in which this Ant Man appears, you would be hard pressed to find a panel where he is in a lab or factory building some type of engineering tech where as finding a comic panel in which Reed Richards is doing science stuff in a lab or Tony Stark is building & testing some tech is pretty easy. Yes he has an engineering skill set, it just doesn't define his comic book persona like it does for others. Vulture is an engineer and inventor but we have him listed as a criminal. Scott Lang used his engineering skills to make him a better thief, now he uses his thief skills in his new career as a hero, so having him listed as thief makes sense to me.

[japes]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

... Scott Lang used his engineering skills to make him a better thief, now he uses his thief skills in his new career as a hero, so having him listed as thief makes sense to me.

L_O and I were just having a discussion. I don't think either of us were convinced that our debates would change either minds but I'm just pointing out the inconsistencies in the logic...take out the words you are using in your statement above and replace with variables...

Scott Lang used his A skills to make him a better B, now he uses his B skills in his new career as a C, so having him listed as B makes sense to me.

By that logic used to eliminate A then B should be eliminated and C should be the answer...but that be a ridiculous class.

I'm fine with Thief I just didn't agree with the argument at the time on why it was far superior to another option that was proposed by someone else. We should probably move along before L_O thinks I'm picking on her when in fact I was quite enjoying the process of a debate that never veered toward negativity. It was good exercise for my brain which is needed currently.