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  #49  
Old May 10th, 2018, 07:30 PM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

For the most part I think a lot of these changes are "correct".

Raelin is for sure the best piece to ever be in this game. Creating a whole new letter grade is appropriate.

Warriors at A+ is a good spot for them. I've never seen them not kill their point value, and they are just too consistently good to not be among the best.

10th should've been A this whole time. In my opinion in a 18 figure game I see them as being better than the 4th, and in 24 hex I think the 4th are better. Regardless since the redcoats are pretty much clones with slight differences, they should be in the same grade. Marcu/MBS/Nerak should've always been A's. They are too good for their points not to be and both MBS and Nerak bond with multiple elite squads, and Marcu is amazing for soaking up the wound glyph and is perhaps the best filler in the game. Him or Isamu. I do have some thoughts about the A's in general. I think blast and glads can be dropped to A- nowadays. The meta focusing on figure limits is enough to justify this. Not being able to play 3 squads of both really hurts them. Mario stingers can be dropped down as well. They 4th/10th, knights/heavies, and kravs all really put the hurt on them and while they are good, I feel that they are a behind those. I might get flack for saying this, but I feel like the Hydra could be dropped to A- as well. The Hydra is the piece I fear the most of anything, but its a very high variance unit, and a single bad defensive role can just cripple it. I think it would be fine left as an A, but because of the consistency it feels a lot like cyprein or the airborne where when they go off they go off, but other times they let your down.

I see eltahale getting the respect she deserves with that A-. One of my favorite pieces for sure, and I think thats the right spot for her. Mezzos makes sense as A-. Romans can be hurt by the figure limit but the lowish point totals help. They probably have one of the best if not the best selection to bond with so A- is appropriate. Not sure about blades but I can see it as either A- or B+.

B+ has a lot of changes. Eldgrim and fire elemental dropping makes sense. Firestorm is good, but its rare because buy a dozen fire elementals is expensive and hard to do. Frost giant at B+ is woke. He is criminally underrated. He can go toe to toe with almost any hero and come out on top or come out even and for his points that makes a lot of difference. Trading frost giant for nilfheim or TKN is great. Marrden Hounds up to B+ is right I think. They'd be A- if they were more consistent. They can really do a number on a lot of things. Nakitas up is also a good choice. Tarns and Ashra are sleepers and are really good as tech. I don't think MacDirks should be up at B+. I can see B- or B, but B+ is an overcorrection from ranking them at C+. Dropping Drake Sotm was about right. A- was overrating him. Dividers at B+ makes sense too, they're good but they only get 3 attacks in melee per turn.

Gladiators at B makes sense. They have good stats but their total numbers are meh. 11 gladiators at 500 is just too few especially considering braxas/TKN/hounds/cyprien all exist. Drake Rotv down makes sense. Ornak is a solid B. He's amazing in one specific format, and he's decent in RTW, and underrated overall. Unpopular opinion, but after Sir Gilbert he's the next best flag bearer, which leads me to my next point. Thank you for putting Laglor at B. Laglor is the most overrated piece in the game. He helped one army win gencon once a decade ago, but maps have gotten smaller and less open since then, people have gotten better at playing the game, and melee is more powerful because of both of those things. Laglor's boost on paper looks good because its a +2 range, but unless a figure is standing 8-9 spaces away it really doesn't make much of a difference. 110 points for maybe a couple attacks at that range is not worth it. I guess its good sometimes, but laglor hasn't put in work in a loooooong time. Sonlen is kinda underrated. He has the potential to do a lot but isn't consistent enough to get his abilities to go off enough. B is appropriate. Othkurik is the 2nd worst dragon. B+ overrated him. Warfordged down is about right. Their abilities are decent, but auto wonders eat them up, and switching is occasionally decent, but a decent opponent can play around it I think.

Shurrak down to B- is fair. He's good but expensive and too situational. Siege is in the same boat. Wolves up is a good move. They are incredibly inconsistent, but a special attack of 5 that improves positioning is good. Werewolf Lord can be bumped up. He is really underrated tech. If he wounds TKN or a key bonding hero, your opponent has to fight an uphill battle. Breaking up bonding armies for 140 points is really underrated. The fact he can moon frenzy is icing on the cake. I could see him at B+, but B is probably more accurate. He's only good as tech against bonding so if your opponent isn't playing bonding he's meh, but if they are he can unleash the top 10 anime betrayals left and right.

This ranking is woke. I agree with probably 90% of the changes. I really like the direction the meta has shifted to with more formats encompassing the possibility of playing your own units, and having a figure limit. I think it makes the games more hero centric, and more oriented to skill. This+the state of the meta address were both good reads. Thanks for writing these up.

Last edited by anagrams_are_just_grams; May 11th, 2018 at 12:57 AM.
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  #50  
Old May 11th, 2018, 12:16 AM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

Not to burst a bubble, but Lizard King Bonding is not broken by Lycanthropy. You can still Moon Frenzy with your puppet dragon however.

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  #51  
Old May 11th, 2018, 12:56 AM
anagrams_are_just_grams anagrams_are_just_grams is offline
 
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

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Not to burst a bubble, but Lizard King Bonding is not broken by Lycanthropy. You can still Moon Frenzy with your puppet dragon however.
My bad you are correct. They bond with "Lizard kings" that are chosen at the start of the game. Good Catch.
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  #52  
Old May 12th, 2018, 06:06 AM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Did I mention I have a companion piece?

It seems like you're valuing him at A in higher point, higher hex games. I don't care about those in these rankings. This is simply based on cost efficiency and consistency in the current meta.
It seems you feel like the recent metagame or tournament format tendencies change the rankings of units pretty drastically, but I don't feel like they really do that much. Lowering the figures to ~18 and switching from hexes to figures is the main change (the maps and glyphs have been pretty similar to how they were back in say 2012). And Reverse the Whip doesn't really change the power of figures, it just changes what people play. (A solely day-2-is-RtW power ranking is something I don't think can really be constructed)

As far as less figures goes, it really just makes the addition of more and/or beefier heroes to be played instead of those final one or two squads in (most) armies. It changes the rankings slightly imo, but not nearly as drastic as I think you think. Trons are harder to play, but I know dok and Dysole both still had good success running them. More Hounds and Deathstalkers are easier to field, but I still don't think they really jump up much. Elf Wizards are a bit better I suppose (shout out to vegie ). Zelrig goes down a tad but I still think he's good.

But 4th Mass, Knights, Heavies, 10th Reg, etc. are still amazing. Q9, Q10, Nilf, Hydra, etc. are still amazing. Venocs, Samurai, Zombies, HSB, Omnicrons, etc. are still pretty good but not great. Cavalry, Monks, Ninjas, etc. still suck.

My point is the constructions of many cookie cutter armies have changed (again, usually to include more/beefier heroes) with smaller variants but the actual power of the units hasn't changed all that much in my opinion. If anything, I think Heroes/Uniques + Rats becomes even better, and Raelin+swarm slightly drops. Not enough to put Raelin lower than A+ of course, or a bunch of the A/A- swarm units lower, but I would say Deathreavers and Q9 become stronger A+ units than Raelin. (...Hard to say, it's difficult to say Raelin herself gets worse, she's still amazing obviously, but I do think rats and Q9 increase. All three are still in A+ imo, the ranking within it is very debatable still, but I do think rats/Q9 get a slight boost). My guess is you think otherwise, putting Raelin even higher than A+ (Not sure whether you think this is with the meta or is that strong regardless). I also think such units like Minions/Sentinels become slightly better, which we think opposite on.

So I think the meta doesn't affect the rankings as much as you do, and with the influence it does have on them, I think I feel very different about what rankings it changes and what powers shift.

That said, I do love that you bumped the MacDirks up.

(Side note: I usually put rats over raelin already, regardless of this meta shift, if you were to ask me to rank within the A+ units)


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Last edited by Cleon; May 12th, 2018 at 06:58 AM.
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  #53  
Old May 12th, 2018, 10:50 AM
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I think RtW rankings are possible, but they won't differ as drastically as say HoB rankings. Also there's apparently many units that I thought were already in certain locations and they were not so that recalibration is there.

It's funny people bring up dok and I as Tron examples. Dok told me I was partially responsible for his decision to run trons the year before I got there since I kept telling him to run straight blasts and he decided to play test blasts and a squad of glads. He later returned the favor by suggesting I run a squad of glads with my army last year. For the record, having played with straight blasts in both Gencon and the Gencon prep event I have to say that straight blasts plays differently enough from glad/blast that I think it should actually count as a different army. (I also wish I could've had a photograph of CVN's face when I told him I ran straight blasts in the main event) So yeah, I share a good chunk of responsibility for glad/ blast still being a thing. (Although I had nothing to do with Deroches decision to run typical glad/blast)

With the A+ units, I can't quite compare them because to me they impact things differently it's a little apples to tomatoes comparison. Q9 is the best solo figure in the game, Raelin basically raises the letter grade of every unit she's with, and rats are more efficient at what they do than any other squad in the game. (MWs are probably #2 but I still feel a decent gap since I'm lukewarm on them getting a bump)

~Dysole, who her least favorite figures are Q9 and 4th because they win boringly. With Raelin and/or rats you can do some more fun things


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  #54  
Old August 8th, 2018, 02:37 PM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

Most of my changes were supported through testing and GenCon this summer.

New changes:
Arkmer up to B+
Warriors of Ashra back down to B

Also, considering dropping Major Q10 down to B+. He's good, but taking him over Kaemon Awa is the wrong choice (barring Team Tourney and Monster Mash and other weird formats).
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  #55  
Old August 8th, 2018, 04:04 PM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Most of my changes were supported through testing and GenCon this summer.

New changes:
Arkmer up to B+
Warriors of Ashra back down to B

Also, considering dropping Major Q10 down to B+. He's good, but taking him over Kaemon Awa is the wrong choice (barring Team Tourney and Monster Mash and other weird formats).
I think these changes seem reasonable. Arkmer has a solid offense, boostable defense, and can be brutal against melee squads with Engagement Strike. He's the best elf to take in many cases, especially at his cost.

The Warriors of Ashra excel at what they do, but I think that as a 3-person melee squad they are still heavily susceptible to range, which is pretty common amongst the higher ranked units. They're great for their points, but not broadly useful enough to be top-tier.

I haven't played with Major Q10 much, but I think that I'd generally take the cheaper Kaemon Awa over having slightly better stats and a second Special Attack.

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  #56  
Old August 8th, 2018, 09:50 PM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Most of my changes were supported through testing and GenCon this summer.

New changes:
Arkmer up to B+
Warriors of Ashra back down to B

Also, considering dropping Major Q10 down to B+. He's good, but taking him over Kaemon Awa is the wrong choice (barring Team Tourney and Monster Mash and other weird formats).
I think these changes seem reasonable. Arkmer has a solid offense, boostable defense, and can be brutal against melee squads with Engagement Strike. He's the best elf to take in many cases, especially at his cost.

The Warriors of Ashra excel at what they do, but I think that as a 3-person melee squad they are still heavily susceptible to range, which is pretty common amongst the higher ranked units. They're great for their points, but not broadly useful enough to be top-tier.

I haven't played with Major Q10 much, but I think that I'd generally take the cheaper Kaemon Awa over having slightly better stats and a second Special Attack.
Yeah, the WoA have been underperforming for me. 3 defense, 5 move, 3 man squad is rough. I've had some games where they all just whiff even in melee; it happens, and they just aren't quite up to B+ standards.

Q10 isn't worth the extra 30 points when he gives up Counter Strike for a 5th defense die, +1 range, +1 defense, and a situationally mediocre second special attack.
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  #57  
Old August 8th, 2018, 10:27 PM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Q10 isn't worth the extra 30 points when he gives up Counter Strike for a 5th defense die, +1 range, +1 defense, and a situationally mediocre second special attack.
I actually think that Counter Strike is overrated for its inconsistency, but Kaemon Awa generally has height when used well and can get a few good strikes off with it. At the very least, I'd agree that it's not worth trading for +1 defense and +30 points, even considering Q10's increased versatility.

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  #58  
Old August 8th, 2018, 10:31 PM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Q10 isn't worth the extra 30 points when he gives up Counter Strike for a 5th defense die, +1 range, +1 defense, and a situationally mediocre second special attack.
I actually think that Counter Strike is overrated for its inconsistency, but Kaemon Awa generally has height when used well and can get a few good strikes off with it. At the very least, I'd agree that it's not worth trading for +1 defense and +30 points, even considering Q10's increased versatility.
Well, I'd agree that CS is generally overrated. However, if he hits even one, that can be a nice tempo swing, especially when he follows it up with his 2x4 attack. He can really clear some figures when that happens.
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  #59  
Old August 8th, 2018, 10:55 PM
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If we're going off results, Q10 made it to the finals. ~_^

Personally, I think Kaemon has always been a bit overrated. Q10 having +1 range and +1 defense is worth it and let's also not forget large and soulborg immunities. The reason I value those highly is it allows you to force another player to come to you and the extra range means you can make it harder for your opponent to actually get hits on you. The special allows you to do something similar as well even if it's less effective that the very merciful WRIST ROCKET TO THE FACE.

I was playing an army in main that hated range and I was much less happy to see Q10 in my quarterfinals opponents' army than I would've with Kaemon. I actually think I win that game if my opponent has Kaemon rather than Q.

~Dysole, still waiting for orcs opinion of her opinions ~_^


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  #60  
Old August 9th, 2018, 10:28 AM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

IMO, Q10 and Kaemon are apporpriately differentiated point-wise. I'd rather have Q10, but then again I'd rather have Q9, but hey 30 points is 30 points should the army not fit 150. Also Kaemon has synergy with Hamamoto Taro, which boosts his best ability Counterstrike.

Mimring>Krug. 'Nuff said.
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