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  #2665  
Old August 8th, 2018, 10:59 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

So compared to Nilfheim:
150 point (Skeleton Archers) vs 185
4 vs 6 life,
4 vs 6 base attack,
5 non-flying vs 6 flying,
No bonding, No Huge immunity, etc.

To be honest, I cannot think of a situation where I would want to bring back an Archer except when Druzhul is at one life and it is my third attack. This seems to make Return of Souls redundant, but I could be wrong.

Looking at it like this, 35 points more for Nilfheim is a steal, I would also consider Q10 a strong comparison.

I think Leaf_It's observation about
Quote:
I was under the impression that loosing the souls, even though you want to keep them, was intentionally part of the design.
was a feature not a bug. I thought this aspect made him more interesting which was a bonus. As of now he does seem like Poor man's (expensive) Nilfheim.


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  #2666  
Old August 8th, 2018, 11:13 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
why would you ever use his normal attack over his special?
If you have height on a guy adjacent to you or non-height on an Iron Golem (and a few other corner cases). This isn't unprecedented - Brunak off the top of my head.
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  #2667  
Old August 8th, 2018, 11:48 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

A couple thoughts- I like Scy’s suggestion of targeting multiple figures for one attack as an easy fix to the problem of losing souls mid-turn.

I still think Foulspawn could be replaced with a better species, but that’s probably a minor quibble. One nifty route you could go is to make him an Elf (a twisted and evil elf), and maybe even tie him/equate him with the Shaman from Feylund who summons the Zombies of Morindan.

I’m less worried about the potential redundancy people see in Return of Souls. His Range and Move values are lower than would allow for significant kiting, and with a Life value of 4, there should be times that you value a figure who can block a choke point or threaten enemies with leaving engagement attacks, so as to avoid your Necromancer being tied down.

This guy is looking better and better.
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  #2668  
Old August 9th, 2018, 05:25 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Arathorn View Post
A couple thoughts- I like Scyís suggestion of targeting multiple figures for one attack as an easy fix to the problem of losing souls mid-turn.

I still think Foulspawn could be replaced with a better species, but thatís probably a minor quibble. One nifty route you could go is to make him an Elf (a twisted and evil elf), and maybe even tie him/equate him with the Shaman from Feylund who summons the Zombies of Morindan.

Iím less worried about the potential redundancy people see in Return of Souls. His Range and Move values are lower than would allow for significant kiting, and with a Life value of 4, there should be times that you value a figure who can block a choke point or threaten enemies with leaving engagement attacks, so as to avoid your Necromancer being tied down.

This guy is looking better and better.
Agreed on all accounts, however in regards to species, I don't think that Elf would fly, even if it's supposed to be a Shaman that summons zombies. I would go with either Undead, or maybe Devourer.
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  #2669  
Old August 9th, 2018, 05:35 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Arathorn View Post
A couple thoughts- I like Scyís suggestion of targeting multiple figures for one attack as an easy fix to the problem of losing souls mid-turn.

I still think Foulspawn could be replaced with a better species, but thatís probably a minor quibble. One nifty route you could go is to make him an Elf (a twisted and evil elf), and maybe even tie him/equate him with the Shaman from Feylund who summons the Zombies of Morindan.

Iím less worried about the potential redundancy people see in Return of Souls. His Range and Move values are lower than would allow for significant kiting, and with a Life value of 4, there should be times that you value a figure who can block a choke point or threaten enemies with leaving engagement attacks, so as to avoid your Necromancer being tied down.

This guy is looking better and better.
Agreed on all accounts, however in regards to species, I don't think that Elf would fly, even if it's supposed to be a Shaman that summons zombies. I would go with either Undead, or maybe Devourer.
Devourer's a class, not a species.

As for species, I'm going to repeat this suggestion I made in Sir Heroscape's thread:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
For the species, why not translate an appropriate word into an appropriate language and see what comes up? I've done that before. For example, if you translate necrosis into German you get Nekrose, which sounds like a decent species if it's going to be something original anyway.
Another option is to look into mythology and folklore and see if there's anything interesting there.


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  #2670  
Old August 9th, 2018, 08:58 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I don't see 4 attack or 4 defense on this figure at all. Why not 3 attack, 2 defense like the elf wizards? You could bump the life up if you want.

I also like the idea that you HAVE to replace an opponent's figure when you use the special attack. There's a simplicity to it in terms of decision making that cuts back on analysis paralysis.

I also like the idea that you have to remove a figure from the card whenever you use the special.

The last two powers seem like one power to me.

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  #2671  
Old August 9th, 2018, 09:25 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
I don't see 4 attack or 4 defense on this figure at all. Why not 3 attack, 2 defense like the elf wizards? You could bump the life up if you want.

I also like the idea that you HAVE to replace an opponent's figure when you use the special attack. There's a simplicity to it in terms of decision making that cuts back on analysis paralysis.

I also like the idea that you have to remove a figure from the card whenever you use the special.

The last two powers seem like one power to me.
Thatís some good feedback, thank you!
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  #2672  
Old August 24th, 2018, 08:05 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Here's my design for that figure I asked about earlier.



After some more thinking, he might be a bit overpowered at 70 points.

My original goal was to stay under 80 points (the price of a squad of Nhah Scirh Cultists), to make that armymore flexible at some different point totals.

To stay at 70, I think I'd drop him to 5 life for testing.

The other option is to go for a point cost like 110, and try to give him a bump somewhere, perhaps giving him 3 defense.

Anybody think one of those directions is better than the other to start my testing?

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  #2673  
Old August 24th, 2018, 08:53 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I'd say the closest comparison here is Warden 816, who's 20 points higher. Warden probably has better offense with a 5 attack special and a ranged normal, but I suspect 6L 2D is going to tend to last longer than its inverse. Warden offers his leadership to a larger variety of figures, but Agrah provides it to an already speedy 4-man squad. At 70 or even 80 points, he would be the cheapest leadership figure (unless I'm forgetting someone).

My instinct is that coming in under 80 is going to be a pretty unlikely, unless it turns out that the bump from 6 to 7 move is significantly less valuable than from 4 to 5 or 5 to 6.
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  #2674  
Old August 24th, 2018, 09:16 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Current "Leadership" figures:

Venoc Warlord: scouts, 2 spaces. Similar stats. More defense, less offense. 120 points.
Warden 816: guards. Better offense, including range. Less sharky. 90 points.
Atlaga: kyrie. Slightly less survivability, has range. Similar game-changing potential. 90 points.
Count Raymond: devout figures. More survivability, and more synergy. Less offense. 90 points.

I think the current version off Agrah Fenh would fall between 80 and 90, but I think I want to differentiate him more in some way, whether up or down. I do think that I could achieve 70, but I'm not sure I'd like how glass-cannon-y he'd be with 5L/2D.

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  #2675  
Old August 24th, 2018, 10:52 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I personally think that he's much more distinct as a cheap leadership figure. While he could certainly be beefier/deadlier at 110 points, we have plenty of cheerleaders around that price already, so the low cost makes him stand out.

As a nerf, 5 life doesn't seem radically different from his current stats to me, although I doubt many players would take the risk of moving him into position if he's that fragile (unless it's at the end of the game), which kind of eats into the sharkiness of his design. A glass cannon cheerleader isn't often seen, though, and I think it kind of fits the Nhah Scirh.

For a potential buff if you do decide to up the price, I think that returning to the original Nhah Scirh Sword power (needing 3 skulls to bypass defense dice instead of 4) is much more interesting than bumping up his defense. Of course, that version is also extremely strong, but at a normal cheerleader price with low survivability, it might be worth considering.

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  #2676  
Old August 25th, 2018, 12:51 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I'm just not feeling a lot of cohesion here. The figure fits with being a Wild Zealot pretty well, and the assassin-ish sword ability fit with that. But I just don't see Icarian Leadership fitting that picture. All the more so when you look at the broader Icarain lore, which suggest the Nhah Scirh zealots are a fanatical exception rather than the rule. Even without that, I'm not getting a leadership vibe from the rest of the design, including figure. It feels like Leadership tacked on to an assassin.



I'm not a fan of Nhah Scirh Sword. I definitely don't like the power name. If it's just a Nhah Scirh sword, why don't all the Nhah Scirh have one? The name doesn't ring out as special. I'm not sure how I feel about the power itself. Like Maul, it's a bit silly, as that many skulls will almost certainly do some solid damage anyway. It does make for somewhat of an intimidating threat to heroes, though.



The value of any Leadership ability depends on what's being boosted. Just think about how valuable Marcus's Soldier Leadership is. The Nhah Scirh Cultists are a decent 4-figure melee squad, so that makes the boost at least somewhat potent, though they are already speedy. Ultimately Icarian Leadership is going to put a lower bound on the cost of this unit, and I'm not sure that's lower than 80pts (though I'm not sure it's not either).
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