Occupy Opinions?

[jschild]

Originally Posted by Mombo101

But hundreds of thousands of people playing into the cultural norms can, and that's what happened.

It only happened though because the banks and lenders, whose sole job is to make money by managing risk vs. reward, completely failed to manage it on even the simplist levels. Well, that's not completely true. Community banks, small banks, and credit unions didn't have this problem at all for the most part because they did what they always did. Manage risk vs. reward. Groups like Countrywide did every stupid trick under the sun because they were greedy. They didn't have to give use tons of high risk methods - but they did and endangered the nation. It's not the banks or lenders money to give it out to anyone - but this is what they did thanks to the removal of Glass-Stengall, deregulation, weakening of an already weak SEC, and lots and lots of greed and stupidity.

[robbdaman]

Originally Posted by jschild

It only happened though because the banks and lenders, whose sole job is to make money by managing risk vs. reward, completely failed to manage it on even the simplist levels. Well, that's not completely true. Community banks, small banks, and credit unions didn't have this problem at all for the most part because they did what they always did. Manage risk vs. reward. Groups like Countrywide did every stupid trick under the sun because they were greedy. They didn't have to give use tons of high risk methods - but they did and endangered the nation. It's not the banks or lenders money to give it out to anyone - but this is what they did thanks to the removal of Glass-Stengall, deregulation, weakening of an already weak SEC, and lots and lots of greed and stupidity.

Exactly, there were thousands of loans that were approved when they shouldn't have been simply because these groups could take that money and invest it. Its been shown in the media that many loans were not even reviewed but just approved to gt access to this money. They basically gave people a home, knowing it would likely blow up in their faces later and took their money to make quick easy gains. Tons of people got screwed and NO ONE has been held accountable for any of it. Its vile to think what this greed has done to people's lives while the fat cats just ate their caviar.

[Mombo101]

Originally Posted by jschild

It only happened though because the banks and lenders, whose sole job is to make money by managing risk vs. reward, completely failed to manage it on even the simplist levels. Well, that's not completely true. Community banks, small banks, and credit unions didn't have this problem at all for the most part because they did what they always did. Manage risk vs. reward. Groups like Countrywide did every stupid trick under the sun because they were greedy. They didn't have to give use tons of high risk methods - but they did and endangered the nation. It's not the banks or lenders money to give it out to anyone - but this is what they did thanks to the removal of Glass-Stengall, deregulation, weakening of an already weak SEC, and lots and lots of greed and stupidity.

No, it didn't happen because of the banks and lenders and the removal of the deregulation. I'll put it in simple terms.

People wanted houses.

People wanted really big houses.

People wanted really big expensive houses.

People wanted really big expensive houses they couldn't afford.

People wanted really big expensive houses they couldn't afford, and THEY STUPIDLY BOUGHT INTO A MORTGAGE THEY COULDN'T AFFORD.

I'm liberal beyond belief, many of you know this already. What bothers me about this entire situation is what harkens to our country as a whole, and it doesn't matter if you're Republican or Democrat, Liberal or Conservative. People do not take responsibility for their actions, and when the -expletive- hits the fan, they blame someone else because it's the easy way out. It's been happening for years, and now we're truly seeing how badly it's biting us in the butt. It's a lame excuse to blame the banks for the actions of the people who bought into the foreclosures, there were thousands who did the right thing and are not in foreclosure right now, but there are thousands that are because they didn't do the basic research.

[robbdaman]

Originally Posted by Mombo101

No, it didn't happen because of the banks and lenders and the removal of the deregulation. I'll put it in simple terms.

People wanted houses.

People wanted really big houses.

People wanted really big expensive houses.

People wanted really big expensive houses they couldn't afford.

People wanted really big expensive houses they couldn't afford, and THEY STUPIDLY BOUGHT INTO A MORTGAGE THEY COULDN'T AFFORD.

I'm liberal beyond belief, many of you know this already. What bothers me about this entire situation is what harkens to our country as a whole, and it doesn't matter if you're Republican or Democrat, Liberal or Conservative. People do not take responsibility for their actions, and when the -expletive- hits the fan, they blame someone else because it's the easy way out. It's been happening for years, and now we're truly seeing how badly it's biting us in the butt. It's a lame excuse to blame the banks for the actions of the people who bought into the foreclosures, there were thousands who did the right thing and are not in foreclosure right now, but there are thousands that are because they didn't do the basic research.

No, they stupidly were given a mortgage they couldn't afford. The banks KNEW they couldn't afford their loans but approved them anyway. Like I just said many of these loans should never have been approved and had they been reviewed as they should have been they would have been turned down. Which is exactly what is happening right now and is the way it happened before the housing boom and the changes discussed above.

[Einar's puppy]

Originally Posted by Mombo101

No, it didn't happen because of the banks and lenders and the removal of the deregulation. I'll put it in simple terms.

People wanted houses.

People wanted really big houses.

People wanted really big expensive houses.

People wanted really big expensive houses they couldn't afford.

People wanted really big expensive houses they couldn't afford, and THEY STUPIDLY BOUGHT INTO A MORTGAGE THEY COULDN'T AFFORD.

Surely you agree however, that if the banks had been regulated so that they couldn't play hacky sack with people's mortgages and offer crooked interest rates, a lot of this could have been avoided.

[Anonymous]

People are stupid and greedy. The bankers were greedy and offered dangerous loans because they wanted money. The people taking out the loans were greedy as well. They wanted houses they couldn't afford and they wanted money they didn't have to buy those houses. Both are to blame. To say that the bankers are greedy, immoral, manipulative fat cats while ignoring the fact that the people who took out the bad loans were just as greedy and irresponsible is to ignore the fundamental problems of our consumer culture. It is all too easy to blame faceless corporations while ignoring our own faults as a general populace. Those who took out the bad loans aren't victims of banks, they were accomplices with said banks and are just as much to blame as the banks for the housing collapse.

[Mombo101]

Originally Posted by Anonymous

People are stupid and greedy. The bankers were greedy and offered dangerous loans because they wanted money. The people taking out the loans were greedy as well. They wanted houses they couldn't afford and they wanted money they didn't have to buy those houses. Both are to blame. To say that the bankers are greedy, immoral, manipulative fat cats while ignoring the fact that the people who took out the bad loans were just as greedy and irresponsible is to ignore the fundamental problems of our consumer culture. It is all too easy to blame faceless corporations while ignoring our own faults as a general populace. Those who took out the bad loans aren't victims of banks, they were accomplices with said banks and are just as much to blame as the banks for the housing collapse.

Very well said.

[Gog the Viking]

I will not vote because I'm not totally sure on my opinion, however I will say:

A big thing that gets talked about in high school is the "American Dream". It's completely acceptable to want a big expensive house with a picket fence and all that. What seems to be overlooked by many is the tidbit regarding having to work hard each and every day to attain that goal. The top 1% has large expensive houses because they took risks and worked in a cut-throat business industry and succeeded. The morality of their success is not the issue here, more that they took the actions necessary to accomplish what they desired.

You can't expect to run a marathon if you haven't gone for a run in a year.

[EternalThanos86]

Here is my biggest issue:

[jschild]

Originally Posted by EternalThanos86

Here is my biggest issue:

Indeed, most people don't seem to understand that we have 3rd world wealth inequalities not seen since the days of Robber Barons. Despite people working harder and productivity going up, Americans are not getting paid more for doing more work. All the money is going pretty much to only one group.

No, it didn't happen because of the banks and lenders and the removal of the deregulation. I'll put it in simple terms

Dude, do you not know how banks and lenders work. They are not supposed to toss out money to anyone who asks. Just because someone wants something, does not mean the bank or lender gives them the money for it. Second, they started using new gimmicks because regulations were eliminated, gimmicks that were not possible 20-30 years ago. Third, many of them actively tried to push people into high risk loans that were likely to explode into people's faces. These banks and lenders did not operate their businesses in anything remotely resembling a proper method because they wanted to get richer and richer. Which they did, until everything exploded because of their recklessness.

Think of it this way. I'm a pharmacist who has alot of Oxycontin. I am supposed to, when asked by a customer, seek information that their doctor did indeed order it and give them only the proper amount. That's my job. However, I decide that screw it, I'll give it out to anyone who will pay for it instead. In fact, when many people come in for normal painkillers, I'm gonna try to push them to get Oxycontin instead as well. And I'm going to coordinate with other Pharmacists to hide what I am actually doing. I sell tons of it to customers but eventually, everything blows up and my Pharmacy and several others get destroyed in legal and jail troubles. Now whose fault is this that it happened?

Yes, people did ask for it. But everything exploded because of my actions. Nothing bad at all would have happened if I would have ran my business like I always had. In addition, I ruined many peoples lives by being reckless and even worse, ruined people that never wanted Oxycontin in the first place but I lied and told them it was better. This is exactly what happened with the banks - They stopped doing their job and because many banks that did this were so huge, it literally threatened our nations financial system. Without the banks happy and active participation, none of it, not one zero bit of the subprime market madness could have happened because They came up with the gimmick, They pushed it on people, They lied and told people it was a great deal, and They bundled and distributed the loans so no one would know the actual risk. They did this - not the customer.

[Rich10]

Originally Posted by EternalThanos86

Here is my biggest issue:

What's the solution? I personally doubt that camping out in parks will change things but I'm willing to listen to a reasoned plan. If the Occupy people have a plan, I haven't heard it. How do we bring the bottom lines up to the top line?

[jschild]

Originally Posted by Rich10

What's the solution? I personally doubt that camping out in parks will change things but I'm willing to listen to a reasoned plan. If the Occupy people have a plan, I haven't heard it. How do we bring the bottom lines up to the top line?

If you think it's about bringing everyone else up to the exact same levels as the wealthiest, you are missing the point.

The point is, despite productivity going up, all the increases in wealth are going to an incredibly small subset of people, most of which didn't do all the work themselves and yet have gotten all the rewards. Destroying labor and constant pushes to weaken labor is not the way. Strengthening labor, mcuh as was done in the late 40's to 60's is the way to go. Basically, we need a new labor movement - though we don't want labor to have all the power. A balance is needed because right now, labor is extremely weak and doesn't have any real negotiating power. Corporations can do pretty much whatever they want to employees, all the while giving massive bonuses to CEO's who trash companies and the like. The playing field hasn't been this unbalanced since before 1929, and you'd have to be insane to think that was a golden age of business. The middle class is dying - and honestly in the long run a strong (but not overpowering) labor movement is the only real solution. It's what created the middle class that boomed in the 50's and 60's. Service to a company used to be rewarded - now, they'll just replace you with someone else for half the cost and cheer how they saved money, yet wonder why people complain about their staff's lack of knowledge. It's so shortsighted it's absurd, but shortsightedness is par for course in the business. Who cares if the business is successful 20 years for now, all that matters is this quarters stock is worth more than last quarters and to hell with everything else.

EDIT: A good read about the stagnant growth of wages vs. productivity. I'm sorry but in the real world if your companies productivity increases by 10-15% and you don't reward your employees for that growth, it's little more than stealing. They stepped up and did more work in the same time and get to have the same job and same pay for doing more work. Way to reward those who help your company....

http://www.businessweek.com/investor...025_902249.htm