Thoughts on Competitive Unit Pricing

[Jexik]

I’d like to start out by saying that the overall balance in recent waves has been great. The playtesters have really started to hit their stride, and I can’t wait to see Wave 9 hit shelves around the country. I love how the new releases are taking old units and reviving them, while simultaneously introducing new and interesting synergies, combos, and tactics to an already excellent game. But I still have a few worries.

Not everyone plays Heroscape to win. Not everyone plays Heroscape in tournaments. But would anyone be hurt if more units were priced a bit more competitively? I’ve seen it suggested multiple times that some units are ‘fun’ units, and that others are ‘competitive,’ but does that distinction really serve a purpose? Can’t we have our fun and want to play it too? (rdhight has been a very vocal proponent of this last sentence).

I am not proposing that we go back and change the cost of any existing figures. I am not suggesting that we house rule them to fit our vision of the game. I am suggesting (and hoping) that future releases will begin to have a more competitive slant when it comes to price. Alternatively, new figures that are released should take extra care to try to boost units that are already overpriced. To show what I mean, I’ll highlight some of my favorite (and least favorite) releases of the last year.

As I state in my order marker pieces, as well as an upcoming strategy article, I think that price (and “killing your points”) is secondary to how a figure affects your and your opponent’s turns. Some even affect what people bring to the table in the first place. I’ll start with a figure that exemplifies this concept.

The Studs

Isamu- Let’s face it. This guy is just pure awesome. He’s a steal at 10 points, but if you’re winning a game by a lot, you probably won’t ever even activate him. He’s a great figure for tournaments and casual play, because he helps the underdog feel like he has a chance of winning all the time, but doesn’t give any benefit to someone in the lead. He’s balanced not by his point cost, but by the fact that a melee hero with one attack who doesn’t bond with anything isn’t a great order marker choice except in certain situations. What I like even more is that while he has an ability that is very specific (2 extra attack against Jandar) he is still very useful outside of that specific niche.

Cyprien Esenwein- Second perhaps only to Major Q9 or Nilfheim in his ability to completely run the table (with of course some help from his lovely and loving wife), this Vampire was at first thought to be ridiculously overpowered. But the fear of facing a swarm of gladiatrons or Major Q9 help keep him in check while simultaneously making him an entertaining choice in drafted games. He makes people second guess using the Krav, which is something I like.

Marro Stingers- Although recently catapulted into spider_poison’s vaunted A+ category alongside the likes of Raelin, Major Q9, 4th Mass, and Deathreavers, I still feel like these guys are pretty balanced. Sure, they can beat anything in capable hands, but a skilled player on the other side of the board has a good chance against them too. Their popularity and short range also subtly boosts the competitiveness of melee units in tournament play.

Sgt. Drake Alexander (SotM)- Here, we get a nice, beefier version of the classic hero from Rise of the Valkyrie. He might seem a tad overcosted, but as a Valiant Soldier, his potential synergy is sky high, and he makes an excellent end game unit.

10th Regiment of Foot- Despite how often you saw me explain that I felt the 4th Massachusetts Line are clearly better, the fact that those dialogues even took place is a testament to their power and versatility. Their 2 defense against ranged threats makes them a much less daunting opponent, and generally makes for a more fun and winnable fight. The choice between Wait then Fire and Bayonet Charge each turn makes them a very entertaining and tactical squad.

Zelrig- Much like Cyprien, just the fear of facing him in a competitive setting is probably good for the metagame. With all of the powers and glyphs that adversely affect unique units, it’s nice to have something going the other way. With the same defensive stats but different optimal targets as Nilfheim, his price is also well chosen.

Zetacron- Elegant in his simplicity. Great price.

Major Q10- Like Zetacron, he seems just right. A great, well-rounded figure that also happens to look totally badass.

The Duds

I think part of the problem for many of these units is how situational they are. How useful is the word Large or Phantom Walk on a card? Can a non-bonding melee hero be useful at any price in a competitive environment? In any case, I think they could all use a good 20-40% point reduction without becoming overpowered.

Shiori- When using her Shuriken or normal attack, she’s doing about the same amount of damage as Isamu, with the same movement ability. Sure, she has 3 lives, and 3 defense (and 4 some of the time!), but 60 points is probably still a little high to pay for a melee figure that doesn’t bond or synergize with anything.

Moriko- Like Shiori, but even worse. Compare her to almost any hero in her point range- Kaemon Awa, Brunak, or heck, even Sgt. Drake or Agent Carr, and she doesn’t really warrant the price of admission. Maybe there’s a new ninja master on the way? I sure hope so.

Gurei-Oni- As spider_poison mentions in his recent power ranking update, he’d be great if he had a ranged attack. As is, you get the same thing and more kick if you opt for Sgt Drake Alexander from RotV. And that guy’s already collecting dust. At least he gets extra movement from the Warden. Which reminds me...

Warden 816- Cool idea. However, he boosts some of the worst figures in the game (and the Blastatrons) and has one attack. He also has a melee special attack which doesn’t work against Deathreavers, the main reason to have a special in the first place. Might be good with future Guard releases, especially if they bond with him.

Templar Cavalry and Grok Riders- These guys suffer from the same problems as Deathstalkers. They’re double spaced and they cost way too much. Sure, in the right situation they can get 5 Attack dice and potentially kill anything, but a strong breeze will usually blow them off the board, especially since they just took all of your starting zone spaces up. They make sweet zombie counters I guess. If being Large automatically jumps the price of squad figures, it shouldn’t. Being double spaced is a big no-no when it comes to common squads.

Marro Drudge- Unless you design a map specifically to favor them, jumping in sludge forces them to give up height advantage 99% of the time, which negates the usefulness of their bonus. When you compare them to Stingers, all I can do is

But there might be light at the end of the swamp tunnel. Cheerleaders that boost oft-neglected personalities or unit types might have a profound effect on the future of this game. Like Guard, Hunter is one of those classes that is home to some of the worst units around (and of course a ‘tron too). Same goes for Warrior, that one’s all over the place. Since there is now a unit that targets Wild figures, it stands to reason that something that boosts Wild figures is just around the corner. Similarly, Soulborgs have immunities- I hope it is only a matter of time before they get their comeuppance.

As I go further with this, I feel that this is becoming less a discussion of price, and more one of versatility. Less versatile figures should have lower point costs, and what I guess I’m noticing is that this is not the case. Bland figures like the Marro Stingers and Major Q9 which overpower their opponents simply by virtue of rolling more attack and defense dice seem to cost just as much as figures with similar or worse defensive stats, even if those other figure’s abilities are much more limited or unreliable.

Really powerful figures like Cyprien or Isamu are much more interesting when they have a fatal flaw. For both of them, it’s those darned Gladiatrons. For Krug, it has always been that he can only kill so many figures per turn, and that it’s rather unwieldy to move his big dumb butt around sometimes. For Nilfheim, it’s his wings. For Braxas or Mimring, it’s that their defense is low enough that the squads they seek to crush are equally dangerous to themselves. For the Krav, it’s that one misplacement or initiative switch can be deadly.

In the future, it would be cool, if more figures had explicit weaknesses and were naturally undercosted. Perhaps the best example of this that already exists is Sir Hawthorne, especially at the time of his release. With one more life, a special attack, and costing 10 points fewer than Sir Denrick, he seems like an obvious choice. But you’re always a little uneasy activating him because of the irrational fear that he might turn on you. [My favorite examples from Magic are the Djinn and Efreet cards. They always have some drawback but have low casting costs.] Marcu is another great example. These cheap, but very tough and flavorful units might serve as a nice counter to the moderately priced, but powerful and slightly more bland units that currently dominate our tournament scene.

Here are a few more ideas. Some of them stem from the fact that I’m a huge fan of the engagement rules. Wording might not be perfect. Unlike the two examples I gave, these don't use the d20 at all.

Simple Programming (think reverse cyberclaw)
If a Zettian Infantry figure is adjacent to an enemy Medium, Large, or Huge figure, it may not move.

Mole
You can’t place your X order marker on this card.

Winded
For every wound marker on Oswald the Obese’s Army Card, subtract one from his Move value.

Slow Reflexes
Dwight the Dim cannot make any leaving engagement attacks.

Chicken
When attacking an adjacent figure, subtract one from Penguins with Machine Guns’ Attack value.

[Clarissimus]

I agree that some of these units are waaaaaaaay too expensive. True, the Grok Riders may get a new warlord in wave 9, but unless he gives them a big defense bonus they're still a waste of space. I'm really disappointed that a unit with such a cool sculpt would turn out to be so weak.

Likewise it's laughable that Shiori costs 6 times as much as Isamu. Moriko also costs about double of what she should. I can't think of any reason to choose Moriko over Brunak, Agent Carr, Airborne Elite, etc.

I don't think the Templars are that bad, it's just hard to fit them into a "standard" point game.

I have to disagree with you about Gurei-Oni, however. I think the key is worth lies in using him in the right situation. I know I haven't used him a lot, but in both playtesting and competitive play the only times he hasn't killed more than his points' worth was when he sat in the start zone and watched his teammates win without his help.

[Jexik]

Originally Posted by Clarissimus

I have to disagree with you about Gurei-Oni, however. I think the key is worth lies in using him in the right situation. I know I haven't used him a lot, but in both playtesting and competitive play the only times he hasn't killed more than his points' worth was when he sat in the start zone and watched his teammates win without his help.

I can see where you're coming from, and you've probably played Gurei-Oni more than I have. The two times I have faced him however, he didn't do much. Once, I bit him with Deathreavers, and later finished him off with (ranged) attacks from higher Marro Stingers. In another game, I charged him with some Roman Legionnaires and killed him. He did Tetsubo a couple of them, but not 100 points worth. I don't think he'd be too powerful at 75 or 80 points, and I'm mostly saying this because he lacks versatility. 4 Defense and 4 Life are the same defensive stats that Finn and Thorgrim have, and they bond.

[Rifier_Ace]

Great piece Jexik. Thanks for taking your time and making ANOTHER great article for the community! Rep up.

[temp.nerd]

This sure does make me think...

[Onacara]

Originally Posted by temp.nerd

This sure does make me think...

what?

[Mooseman]

Th one concern I have about having more and more competitively priced figures is power creep. If 'good' figures become the norm, what will 'great' figures be? It seems like a very fine line between making more good figures, and making too good figures.

Great article, I had fun reading it.

[spider_poison]

Originally Posted by Jexik

As I go further with this, I feel that this is becoming less a discussion of price, and more one of versatility.

I couldn't agree with this point more. Instead of units being "overcosted" and such, I think it's usually just that the figures aren't good enough to begin with to warrant tourney game time. For a lot of the less-used units in tourneys, imagine halving their point costs. Many of those figures still wouldn't be used. Why? Because every time you activate that card, you still get the exact same thing that you did before. Of course, there are some glaring exceptions to this, but many of those figures don't require many markers to be effective anyway: Taelord, Kato, Hatamoto, Acolarh, etc.

Likewise, there are many figures for which you can increase their point costs and will still be very competitive:

Q9- What is the true "right" point cost for him? I'm not sure, but I'd be willing to pay 250 most of the time.

Raelin- Make her 140. I'd still take her

Deathreavers- Even if they were 70 points, I think they'd still see lots of play.


However, most of the "good" figures in Heroscape would (IMO) become less desirable if their point costs were increased. Marro Stingers, 4th Mass, Kaemon Awa, etc....if they had their costs increased, I doubt they would see much play. But why is that? I think it's because there are many other units who already do what those units do, which goes back to Jexik's original point: "As I go further with this, I feel that this is becoming less a discussion of price, and more one of versatility."

At the same time, I think there are many units that would become competitive if their point costs were reduced. These units have good stats, solid abilities, but they just cost a little too much to fit in your army.

Grok Riders- They've got decent stats and bonding with good heroes, but they're just too pricey. If they were dropped significantly in price, they could be very competitive. Three or four squads of these guys and Ne-Gok-Sa could challenge just about any dragon or high point cost hero like Q9.

Taelord- Plus one attack for a unit that rarely requires order markers? Drop Taelord in price and he'd be awesome. As it is, Taelord costs too much.

The Einar Imperium- When these guys get rolling, they can be devastating. However, if 2 of them die, you probably only have 4 left

By the way, this post is in no way a means of whining or complaining about Heroscape, I just meant it as a way to further explain one of Jexik's points. It's pretty hard to disappoint a Heroscape fanatic like me, who, no matter what the designers do, will always be on these boards and have to collect everything the designers release

[Jexik]

Originally Posted by Mooseman

The one concern I have about having more and more competitively priced figures is power creep. If 'good' figures become the norm, what will 'great' figures be? It seems like a very fine line between making more good figures, and making too good figures.

Great article, I had fun reading it.

That's part of why I like Cyprien, Isamu, and the Marro Stingers especially. They are good new units that people enjoy playing, have a lot of cool flavor, but are still beatable by the former 'good' units. Same goes for the Redcoats. The ones I highlighted do a pretty good job of walking this line perfectly. I don't think anything released since Raknar's Vision has been an absolute gamebreaker. Some of these recent releases even make Q9, Braxas, and Nilfheim seem less imposing.

Originally Posted by spider_poison

I couldn't agree with this point more. Instead of units being "overcosted" and such, I think it's usually just that the figures aren't good enough to begin with to warrant tourney game time. For a lot of the less-used units in tourneys, imagine halving their point costs. Many of those figures still wouldn't be used. Why? Because every time you activate that card, you still get the exact same thing that you did before. Of course, there are some glaring exceptions to this, but many of those figures don't require many markers to be effective anyway: Taelord, Kato, Hatamoto, Acolarh, etc.

Likewise, there are many figures for which you can increase their point costs and will still be very competitive:

Q9- What is the true "right" point cost for him? I'm not sure, but I'd be willing to pay 250 most of the time.

Raelin- Make her 140. I'd still take her

Deathreavers- Even if they were 70 points, I think they'd still see lots of play.


However, most of the "good" figures in Heroscape would (IMO) become less desirable if their point costs were increased. Marro Stingers, 4th Mass, Kaemon Awa, etc....if they had their costs increased, I doubt they would see much play. But why is that? I think it's because there are many other units who already do what those units do, which goes back to Jexik's original point: "As I go further with this, I feel that this is becoming less a discussion of price, and more one of versatility."

At the same time, I think there are many units that would become competitive if their point costs were reduced. These units have good stats, solid abilities, but they just cost a little too much to fit in your army.

Grok Riders- They've got decent stats and bonding with good heroes, but they're just too pricey. If they were dropped significantly in price, they could be very competitive. Three or four squads of these guys and Ne-Gok-Sa could challenge just about any dragon or high point cost hero like Q9.

Taelord- Plus one attack for a unit that rarely requires order markers? Drop Taelord in price and he'd be awesome. As it is, Taelord costs too much.

The Einar Imperium- When these guys get rolling, they can be devastating. However, if 2 of them die, you probably only have 4 left

By the way, this post is in no way a means of whining or complaining about Heroscape, I just meant it as a way to further explain one of Jexik's points. It's pretty hard to disappoint a Heroscape fanatic like me, who, no matter what the designers do, will always be on these boards and have to collect everything the designers release

One thing I'd like to say a bit more on this subject is that when you get a cool little niche hero like Shiori or Moriko, they should follow Isamu, Zetacron, and Eldgrim's example, rather than Agent Carr's. Just be a little bit cheaper. If Deadeye Dan and Shiori cost 35 points instead of 60, even I might play one of them in a tourney some time. If Moriko were 75 instead of 110, she might be a viable Shotgun alternative. As far as Ninja go, Phantom Walk is an excellent power for cheap, go-it-alone heroes to have. The biggest problem with Dünd and Deathwalker 7000 is that it is so easy to engage them with figures you don't care about. (That said, some of these figures could easily be helped by a Ninja Master or a Posse leader or... well, you get the idea.)

Today I noticed that there are absolutely no single based heroes that cost 35 or 40 points.

[1Mmirg]

Thanks again for another great article, Jexik. We just had a game today where I thought I'd try out the G-nators again. Another player wanted to try the Templar again. In each case, the only response I can offer is "big mistake"!

But that said (as you said), we don't know what is in the pike. Is there something coming that will boost double-based squads? Is there a ninja bonus coming? Etc.

The G-nators are at least worth playing with Nakitas and Jungle (though still not competitive, imho). Skahen makes Dund just a tad better, maybe one more minor boost is coming along and Dund may be worth getting.

I still firmly believe, as s_p says as well, that the Stingers biggest bonus is their (a) low cost and (b) availability (to a lesser extent). A ranged attack of 3 for 60 points--a bargain. They are not incredibly brilliant units (like the Reavers or Raelin), they are just cheap.

I like that HS always breeds change. Wave 9 is likely to introduce some more elements that will shade things. (Watching Gwyn shoot up the Rankings is an example--even if they are still mostly a niche army--the best example remains the Glads who just simply seemed way too expensive--then--bam!--they became one of my favorite armies with the Blasts released!) What will happen next?

In the meantime, I am very happy with units like Q10, Isamu, and some of the others you mentioned that seem so precisely valued--a big huzzah to the game designers on units like those!

[Snotwalker 8000]

Great article!

And very good point about cost and versatility! You're right on the money when you point out that no matter how much a unit's cost is reduced, if they can't do much in a game, they still won't be brought to a tourney. (Gurie-Oni is a good example of this... )

And yes, one beauty of Heroscape is that with every new release around the corner, we stand to be pleasantly surprised at new revitalizations of "under-achievers" in the game. (Dund with Skahen). So what is a "dud" today, may very well be a "stud" tomorrow....

Great job Jexik!

SW8K

[robbdaman]

I actually think Gurei-Oni is fairly balanced when compared to many other units, I really don't think he's as much of a dud as a lot of other pieces. The problem is that his evil eye is just useless up against anything that has special attacks or more importantly chooses to attack him while adjacent. Face only 10th Foot, 4th Mass, Stingers, etc he could potentially take out quite a few as long as they attack him from ranged. I think if his evil eye was worded that it affected any figure that has a range of 2 and up would have made him a total beast against such pieces but as is tactically it's just smarter to move your stingers or what have you adjacent and blast him to death.

R~