Gen Con 2016

[Dysole]

Double blind needs to do something really interesting to excite me. I'm the person who brought Sudema to monster mash. That's the kind of stuff I like doing but I also encountered a lot of high power armies. It can be frustrating if I'm playing goofy off the wall crap and know that I'm going to need to play exceptionally well to go above .500 because I'm probably going to be the underdog every match. So for me it's less that cheese will win as people who want to win will likely bring some variant of cheese because the format rewards that rather than the off the wall stuff I like doing. Eh, everyone isn't me though.

~Dysole, noting this is also the reason she tends to stick to Limited in magic the gathering rather than Standard

[caps]

Originally Posted by Dysole

Double blind needs to do something really interesting to excite me. I'm the person who brought Sudema to monster mash. That's the kind of stuff I like doing but I also encountered a lot of high power armies. It can be frustrating if I'm playing goofy off the wall crap and know that I'm going to need to play exceptionally well to go above .500 because I'm probably going to be the underdog every match. So for me it's less that cheese will win as people who want to win will likely bring some variant of cheese because the format rewards that rather than the off the wall stuff I like doing. Eh, everyone isn't me though.

~Dysole, noting this is also the reason she tends to stick to Limited in magic the gathering rather than Standard

This is how I feel too. I'm a pretty good player, but I'm not a pretty *great* player. And I like to run semi-funky armies. It is frustrating to think that if don't bring the cheese I'll lose to players who are maybe not as good as I am because they just brought a pack of 4th Mass. Of course I would still expect to lose to someone like Rÿchean or Matthias regardless of what army they're playing. But my overall record won't really reflect my skill at the game--it will reflect the matchups I had that were bad (and the ones I had that were good).

And I still think the Rÿchean's and Matthias's of the world get screwed in double blind RtW too.

[Raider30]

Heyo,

Just a couple of things I'd like to remind people of when they are thinking about the events at Gencon:

Probably foremost is that we cannot cater to every type of heroscape player out there for every event every year. To be sure we try to gather in as great a group (and Heroscapers really are the greatest of groups!) as possible, but we have to recognize the reality that we won't make everyone happy, all the time.

That means certain events, which might have been your personal favorite, just might not make it into the years offerings. That's just a reality. There's only so much time and so much space GC will give us and choices have to be made. So, as some of you have noticed, events do rotate in and out of circulation. Your personal favorite event might not show up this year, but we really hope you will try something new and have a great time with it.

Over the past 4 years we have really expanded the types of events offered to those fortunate enough to come to GC and play. Formats we have brought to GC include a kids tourney, Assassin's Creed, Take 2, and Open play among others. This year we are trying out a Flex style tourney, variations on the 4x format and Arena of the Planeswalkers events.

Some of these events are events we felt would benefit the community, like the Kids Tourney and the Team Tourney. Some of these are a direct response to suggestions and comments we've gotten over the years, like Open Play which provides a place for people to gather, play practice games, hang with friends, and run a custom tourney for the community of customs players(wayto go Megasilver!!!) and this year's AOTP events. Some of these we just thought were cool and people would have a good time with like Assassin's Creed for instance.

We've played with point totals and hexes over the years and I'm sure that will continue as well. Some of that is in response to player suggestions/comments and some of that is GC issues.

So please, come and try out an old favorite or discover a new favorite format, and when it's all said and done let us know what you liked and didn't like. I think it's been shown over the years that we do take feedback into consideration.

- Raider30, Beau

[Raider30]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

This is how I feel too. I'm a pretty good player, but I'm not a pretty *great* player. It is frustrating to think that if don't bring the cheese I'll lose to players who are maybe not as good as I am because they just brought a pack of 4th Mass. Of course I would still expect to lose to someone like Rÿchean or Matthias regardless of what army they're playing. But my overall record won't really reflect my skill at the game--it will reflect the matchups I had that were bad.

And I still think the Rÿchean's and Matthias's of the world get screwed in double blind RtW too.

Heyo,

Going to jump in here and say that I echo what both of you have to say about facing cheese armies. That's not fun for me. I'm there to relax, roll some dice and have a laugh. I'm what I'd call 'friendly-competitive' when it comes to games. Some people are more competitive than I am and some way less. People who are super competitive will likely bring cheese, it's gonna happen, but I can't stop it and so I've come to terms with it. Personally I would hope the better players in the community wouldn't but some will. It is what it is.

I can't control that totally, but I can control it partially. To that end I usually aim for events like Unique Only or HotB which partially nullify some of the cheese type stuff(because I can start my hounds next to your 4th Mass!). If you guys like making armies and trying stuff out, but don't want to potentially face the cheese every round I am strongly suggesting you check out the variations on the 4x we've got this year. Personally I love the 4x event. I love making armies, and I like trying fun armies, which is hard to do when you are in an event that you have to use the army you brought through the entire event, especially if perhaps it's not that good of an army(::cough::my obsidian guards on a snow map in one matchup::cough:. But next round I had a different army, different map, and different opponent.

So, I guess I'm saying to look for the bright side of how you like to play and find an event(or 3) that has the greatest chance to allow you to have a good time.

- Raider30, Beau

[Dad_Scaper]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

And I still think the Rÿchean's and Matthias's of the world get screwed in double blind RtW too.

I like the idea that, if you make Day 2, you have a puncher's chance to beat a great player. No matter who you are. I suspect Rÿchean and Matthias also like that as a feature, and not a bug.

That said, you don't win the Main Event if you aren't pretty damn good.

[vegietarian18]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

This is how I feel too. I'm a pretty good player, but I'm not a pretty *great* player. It is frustrating to think that if don't bring the cheese I'll lose to players who are maybe not as good as I am because they just brought a pack of 4th Mass. Of course I would still expect to lose to someone like Rÿchean or Matthias regardless of what army they're playing. But my overall record won't really reflect my skill at the game--it will reflect the matchups I had that were bad.

And I still think the Rÿchean's and Matthias's of the world get screwed in double blind RtW too.

My opinion on Heroscape tournaments is that they are there are to find the winner, not the best player. The best players are going to be the winners more often, but at the end of the day there's only so many winners and everyone wants to be one. It is fun to be a part of what crowned the winner even if it's not you, or even if it's not the best player.

To bring this back to the "matchup roulette", I mean, the guy who coined the term has gotten to the Top 4 in RtW the last three years. Matthias consistently brings one of the worst armies in the field, yet he's made Day 2 three years running (at least), and the finals in two of those last three. Rÿchean won the main event the year he started playing again. There's obviously some skill in Reverse the Whip. I guess you can argue that those of us who are not Heroscape Legends cannot consistently get to Day 2, but I think that is more just natural variance than a flaw in the format. Most people at GenCon are good players. Only 8 people make Day 2 and win a game. There's not room in the Top 8 for the 32 people who are good enough to get there. But it's fun to try to.

[Matthias Maccabeus]

Jj

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

I like the idea that, if you make Day 2, you have a puncher's chance to beat a great player. No matter who you are. I suspect Rÿchean and Matthias also like that as a feature, and not a bug.

That said, you don't win the Main Event if you aren't pretty damn good.

Funny thing is, I've made day 2 every year w reverse the whip and I quit playing competitively in 2010... so I'm not sure I agree with Caps assessment but I'm coming to play and have fun and that's what I love best about gen con. Of course spiders, parmenio, and wsg might be overpowered and I'm the only one that figured it out...

[dok]

I wasn't planning on debating this stuff publicly since I've done it so many times and it never seems to matter anyway, but a few responses to some things that have been said:

Originally Posted by vegietarian18

I have also never seen a GenCon event won solely on cheesiness of army.

I realize you enjoy hyperbole vegie, so I imagine you're aware this is a ridiculous straw man. Of course, nobody has argued that cheesiness is enough to win an event by itself. When people grumble things like "dok only won that event because he brought rats and Q9", what they actually mean is that it gave me an undeniable edge, such that I was going to have a much better chance of winning. And if you look at event winning armies over the years, sure enough, they are much stronger armies, on average, than the field they came out of. Very few Gencon events have been won by someone who brought a weird, off-the-wall build. The obvious exceptions are RtW, draft, and take 2.

Originally Posted by Raider30

Probably foremost is that we cannot cater to every type of heroscape player out there for every event every year.

This, too, is a strawman. Of course, we know you can't please all the people all the time. You're not magicians. You can't even please all the people some of the time. As you say, there's a limited number of slots.

But what you can do is please most of the people most of the time. The number of people who prefer formats other than double blind prebuilt events is not some tiny sliver of the players - it's a significant fraction. Maybe not a majority, but a fair number of players. This year, they get zero Gencon events, unless you count day 2.

Last year, I decided I wasn't going to play any event where bringing the cheese was the path to maximizing your chances. I only bought tickets for draft, take 2, and main. (I did end up signing up for TQ because there were only 3 players and the dealer hall is a trainwreck Thursday morning.) This year, if I follow the same plan, I will end up only playing the main event. No matter what I end up deciding to do, it makes me sad that that's my choice.

To be blunt, it seems a little disingenuous to act as though you were aiming to get maximum variety and please as many people as possible when you found room for three different 4x### formats, but zero formats that involve any kind of drafting element. I realize there was no malice here, and nobody set out to remove anyone's favorite format. But it really doesn't seem like the goal of having something for everyone was front and center.

Originally Posted by Raider30

I can't control that totally, but I can control it partially. To that end I usually aim for events like Unique Only or HotB which partially nullify some of the cheese type stuff(because I can start my hounds next to your 4th Mass!).

I don't really feel like these events reduce the cheese, personally. They just change what the cheese is. The stinkiest HoB cheese has changed over the years depending on the exact format, but it's not an accident that it was won two years in a row by Deathchasers, and earlier when the format was different it was won two years in a row by wait-then-fire squads, and earlier when the format was different it was won two years in a row by Warriors of Ashra. Unique only is a new format, but looking at Unique Hero, we see that it was won two years in a row by Raelin+Hydras.

I guess maybe for some people they don't mind if there's a lot of cheese out there as long as the formats make the cheese vary from event to event? That makes sense I guess. But to me, it's still not really what I'd prefer.

I also don't see how the 4x events reduce the cheese. Obviously it forces you to run different builds, but it's not hard to come up with 4 extremely strong A-level builds that don't share figures. The format encourages that just as much as formats that only bring 1 army... especially if there's a pick your poison finals round, as there has been in past years when there were multiple 4-0s.

Originally Posted by Raider30

I love making armies, and I like trying fun armies, which is hard to do when you are in an event that you have to use the army you brought through the entire event, especially if perhaps it's not that good of an army(::cough::my obsidian guards on a snow map in one matchup::cough:. But next round I had a different army, different map, and different opponent.

This is a great description of one of the reasons why I like various drafting formats like take 2 (a.k.a. "army draft") or pooled draft, or @kevindola 's pod draft, and so on.

[fomox]

I appreciate the constructive comments and suggestions.

The selection of events is made based on several factors, including which events have sold well (or not) in the past, suggestions from many players, and some new ideas I wanted to try to help create fun opportunities playing Heroscape.

The addition of prizes for innovative and fun army design and for sportsmanship are intended to encourage players to be creative and feel that bringing more original armies will be rewarded as much as bringing the typical top tier builds.

For people who had suggestions that aren't represented in the schedule (most of whom aren't commenting here), I sincerely hope you'll find some fun Heroscape events among those we have this year. If not, I hope you'll consider organizing an event you are excited about during one of the Open Play slots. Again, we will help with prize support for these events. Indeed, if those go well, we may open up more Open Play slots in the future, allowing more people to create events they are excited about.

Thanks for your support of Heroscape at Gencon!

[Dysole]

In light of fomox's most recent comments I do want to say I appreciate the energy and time that is put into all of this. While the current selection is a bit mixed to me I will still probably have a good time regardless. I thank the Gencon organizers for being willing to listen.

~Dysole, with the goal to play everything in at least one tourney

[Dad_Scaper]

Originally Posted by fomox

the Open Play slots. Again, we will help with prize support for these events.

This is terrific news. That is outstanding, fomox. If @MegaSilver ran a Take 2 C3V/SoV event during Open Play, I imagine that might get some attention.

[Matthias Maccabeus]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

About which thing?

• 500 point AotP?
• 600 point main event?
• Double blind as an incentive to bring the same old cheesy armies?
• You like double blind regardless of cheesy armies?

AotP - Don't care either way

600 point main event - absolutely hate the idea, though I can bring 4 x knights, Alastair and Gilbert with 18 hexes and just play 105 light... (hmm, that's actually an interesting idea...)

I love double blind, bring something not cheesy and beat the cheesy armies with it, I do it all the time yet people still somehow think it's not possible / fair, I just don't get it.

But the point is everybody has different preferences and the good news about having so many events is we can play or not play in what we want based of those preferences.