Tournament ready wave 9 figures

[dok]

The Gladiator build seems pretty clearly not as competitive against a broad range of opponents as knights+gilbert+(whatever) is, but it's right up there with the best of the rest of the melee armies. I stand by my "initiative bonus is not all that great" argument, but a 6/4/4 squad with strong hero backups will do just fine, even with a squadsize of 3 and only half a startzone worth of figures.

Similarly, Dwarves will be really good and could make a good showing at the right point levels. The knights keep the top spot in melee armies, but I could see a 530 point Dwarf army (with Braxas) winning an event.

It will be interesting to see whether Repulsors show up as 80 point fillers to combat rats/'trons/majors, or whether they are restricted to sniper&repuslor builds. I like that sniper&repulsor build a lot. 3x of each plus Raelin is a very solid 500 point army.

I agree that TBR is the worst figure and Kumiko, while not terrible, is next-worst. She has some uses, like a cheap special to help the 'trons against rats or Repulsors, but aside from that, I agree with Jexik that her special is going to be tricky to use well.

Aldin, I disagree that 2x of replicators will serve as a good alternative to deathreavers. With only 6 figures, I don't think you have the numbers to depend on replication to keep you afloat. Like zombies, I think you need a bunch of these guys so that you can ride a run of bad luck without running out. I also think they need SBN, as a single extra point on the d20 really tilts the replication math in the long run. As such, they seems like more of a core for an army than a cheap throw-in for blocking.

The MRT are, by far, the hardest army to project in this wave. I really need to see some reports of their performance to figure it out. I'm confident they're competitive, but I'm not sure what they're best against, or what they're good with. I am willing to believe killercactus and others when they say that they make the most sense alongside viper armies, taking advantage of the Venoc Warlord synergy.

I'm interested to see whether Altaga becomes considered a "must" figure for Minion armies. He makes a big difference against squads with a range of 6. I don't think he's as crucial alongside the protectors, actually.

[killercactus]

When looking at their tournament readiness, I tend to try and think of the armies in which they belong, not just the units. So, I'll list out what I believe to be the strongest tournament armies for each unit at 500 points.

Easy ones first:

Spartacus - 200
Crixus - 290
Capuan Gladiators x3 - 500

Ullar's Protectors x2 - 220
Major Q10 - 370
Deathreavers x3 - 490
Isamu - 500

Gladiatrons x3 - 240
Blastatrons x3 - 420
Kumiko - 500

Mohicans x4 - 280
Brave Arrow - 330
Venoc Warlord - 450
Marro Warriors - 500

These are the Wave 9 units I feel are the least versatile, meaning they're more locked into an army. The Gladiators are obvious, Protectors need Deathreavers, Kumiko really only makes sense for Trons IMO, and only if Repulsors get really big, and the Mohicans need multiple squads, Brave Arrow and Mittens.

These units fit well in a few places, but this is where I like them:

Marro Dividers x4 - 200
Krav Maga Agents - 300
Raelin - 380
Kaemon Awa - 500

Atlaga - 90
Raelin - 170
Minions x3 - 500

Omnicron Repulsors x2 - 80 (can be made x3 if RotV Raelin used)
Omnicron Snipers x2 - 280
Raelin (SotM) - 400
Krav Maga Agents - 500

Tul-Bak-Ra - 130
Marro Dividers x3 - 280
Su-Bak-Na - 440
Marrden Nagrubs x2 - 500

Migol Ironwill - 110
Axegrinders of the Burning Forge x3 - 320
Major Q9 - 500

Note that the Dividers are in two armies, but I think TBR actually drags them down. Krav/Raelin is a proven way to get ranged units closer to melee and, I think once the Dividers are in melee they stand a good chance. Kaemon cleans up and exterminates rats.

Atlaga has a few viable builds, but the Minions are the highest ranked Kyrie squad in both mine and spider_poison's books, so they get the nod. Even though I think Raelin does next to nothing for the Minions, she makes sense to add here thanks to the enhanced movement.

With Repulsors, again its Krav/Raelin to get the enemy to come to you, where the Omni-Swarm can begin. Omni's for heroes and Soulborgs, Krav for squads.

Lastly, I think TBR is at his best with Dividers, and Su-Bak-Na will help the Dividers last once they're behind enemy lines. I've also considered TBR alongside some bigger named units to act as an assassin, but for now I'm sticking with this.

Lastly, the Dwarves are probably the most versatile in terms of army builds, so adding a great Special Attacking figure that works his best against cheap squads should be the way to go.

So, of these armies, which do I think will do the best at a tournament? I think I rank them like so:

1) Dwarves+Q9
2) Dividers+KRK
3) Kumiko+Trons (though I still think Raelin is better)
4) Protectors + Q10/Rats
5) Steamroller
6) Atlaga + Raelin/Minions
7) Repulsors + Raelin/Krav
Mohicans + Mittens/Marro
9) TBR + Dividers/SBN

Of the 9, I see the top 8 having potential to go 4-1, with the top 3 or 4 having potential to win a tourney. The best I could see someone doing with #9 is 3-2 without incredible luck. Maybe something like Q9/Raelin/Krav/TBR would work better for him.... I don't know.

[Rich10]

Originally Posted by dok

I disagree that 2x of replicators will serve as a good alternative to deathreavers. With only 6 figures, I don't think you have the numbers to depend on replication to keep you afloat. Like zombies, I think you need a bunch of these guys so that you can ride a run of bad luck without running out. I also think they need SBN, as a single extra point on the d20 really tilts the replication math in the long run. As such, they seems like more of a core for an army than a cheap throw-in for blocking.

I'm sure that you meant Dividers.

It seems that the only consensus is the the Mohicans and Tul-Bak-Ra will be "non competitive". Even these figures are average. There are no overtly non competitive figures like DW 7000, Templar Cavalry or Hatamoto Taro.

I question whether the Dividers will be as good a screen as rats (or KOW, WOA, ...). I personally don't like powers that have a low probability of succeeding (ie mindshackle), but with multiple figures (3 squads or more), there should be enough attempts so that it becomes a fairly reliable power.

Kumiko isn't a bad figure per se, but I think that in most cases, it will be preferable to have another common squad. I don't see her getting much play unless you can't take another squad because of starting zone limitations.

All in all, this is a very impressive job by the testers. There are a lot of interesting figures that are playable. I think that I'm back to multiples of all of the commons.

[Aldin]

Ry,

Naturally I'll take your word for it. I certainly understand Steamroller to be "the most canned of canned armies" and a lot of fun to play. I didn't realize that necessarily translated to readiness in the tournament environment.

Zarovichx,

His problem lies in how little he can accomplish on any given Order Marker. He gets one attack that isn't strong enough to do much damage to a hero. Most figures can attack multiple units and be effective against squads or have a single powerful attack useful for quickly pounding heroes. TBR is mobile and has a quirky summoning power, but he has little ability to badly harm your foe in a single Order Marker.

dok,

I don't think Rats are dead, but I think the threat of Repulsors makes Dividers a palatable possibility. Like the Rats, you can position them and then stop placing OMs on them. It adds another variable to your opponents' calculations on how they're going to get past your melee screen. As a bonus, you get a decent attack from them as you move them into position. Plus, they're another one of those great "it ain't over til the fat lady sings" units.

~Aldin, wondering which day this week will see a package from House Mouse on his doorstep

[Rÿchean]

Originally Posted by dok

The MRT are, by far, the hardest army to project in this wave. I really need to see some reports of their performance to figure it out. I'm confident they're competitive, but I'm not sure what they're best against, or what they're good with. I am willing to believe killercactus and others when they say that they make the most sense alongside viper armies, taking advantage of the Venoc Warlord synergy.

I faced a similar army with the Steamroller yesterday; it was one of those wins that exemplified why the Capuan build is called what it is. MRT need some screening units so they don't get overwhelmed, unless playing a huge mass of them. Mittens helps for sure, but they still need some screening units, as in not vipers.

I feel the ABF and Altaga are probably the best stuff in the wave.

Repulsurs are the little units that could......but probably won't.

[mccombju]

Originally Posted by killercactus

When looking at their tournament readiness, I tend to try and think of the armies in which they belong, not just the units. So, I'll list out what I believe to be the strongest tournament armies for each unit at 500 points.

Ullar's Protectors x2 - 220
Major Q10 - 370
Deathreavers x3 - 490
Isamu - 500

These are the Wave 9 units I feel are the least versatile, meaning they're more locked into an army. ... Protectors need Deathreavers.

I also dreamed up your Protector army listed above. I agree that the Protectors really seem to depend on an effective melee screen... much the way that competitive Nilfheim builds seem to.

Therefore, I think the following army should be considered as legitimate tourney-ready alternative to Q10 + 3x Deathreavers.

Orcs:
Grimnak - 120
Blade Gruts x2 - 80
Raelin - 80
Protectors of Ullar x2 - 220
----------------------------
500 Points, 17 Hexes

Another "tried and true" potential army for the Protectors is the following:

4th Mass:
Protectors of Ullar x2 - 220
4th Mass x4 - 280
----------------------------
500 Points, 22 Hexes

This Protectors army, while strong against heroes, is probably the least effective 4th Mass + 110 Point Common Kyrie army in my opinion (i.e. Minions or Sentinels). The Protectors may not need a melee screen in the above army, because the 4th Mass may be able to weather the storm with Wait Then Fire.

[Devil's Advocate]

Protectors x2 + 4x 4th Mass could be interesting. I think what you would do is send out the Protectors early to cause carnage and go for the Heroes and then after they die use your all valiant 4th Mass to take out the squads

[Rich10]

Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate

Protectors x2 + 4x 4th Mass could be interesting. I think what you would do is send out the Protectors early to cause carnage and go for the Heroes and then after they die use your all valiant 4th Mass to take out the squads

If I were your opponent, I wouldn't kill the last Protector. The last Protector isn't worth an order marker for you and the 4th Mass wouldn't get the valiant bonus.

[dok]

Rich10, I don't think there's any consensus that the MRT will be bad. If anything, I think the emerging consensus is that they are a decent counter to the 4th.

killercactus, good analysis as usual. However, I prefer to not restrict myself to 500 points when considering armies, as that particular number might work better for some armies than others. So, allow me to modify some of your builds to put the new figures in (IMO) their best light:

Originally Posted by killercactus

Ullar's Protectors x2 - 220
Major Q10 - 370
Deathreavers x3 - 490
Isamu - 500

220 Ullar's Protectors x2
180 Major Q9
120 Deathreavers x3
520, 20 hexes

I think this is pretty strong, but mostly due to the non-Protector portion.

Originally Posted by killercactus

Gladiatrons x3 - 240
Blastatrons x3 - 420
Kumiko - 500

240 Gladiatrons x3
120 Blastarons x2
80 Raelin RotV
80 Kumiko
20 Marcu Esenwein
540, 23 hexes

I like Kumiko's (and Marcu's) synergy with Gladiatrons. I have to kick it up to 540, as Kumiko really pales in comparison with 3 extra Gladiatrons. Even at this level it's questionable whether you'd rather just have the 3 Glads and eat (effectively) 40 points. At 550 I'd much rather have Laglor than Kumiko+Marcu+Isamu, so this is the sweet spot for Kumiko, insofar as there is one.

Originally Posted by killercactus

Mohicans x4 - 280
Brave Arrow - 330
Venoc Warlord - 450
Marro Warriors - 500

210 MRT x3
50 Brave Arrow
120 Venoc Warlord
65 Armoc Vipers
120 Venoc Vipers x3
565, 23 hexes

Or just 500 without the Armocs, maybe. This army is going to get smoked by a good melee squad army, but I don't think I'd want to face it with a horde of 4th Mass.

Originally Posted by killercactus

Marro Dividers x4 - 200
Krav Maga Agents - 300
Raelin - 380
Kaemon Awa - 500

Well, you might be right that this is best, just given the quality of the figures you're pairing them with. However, I have to think that if we're looking to make the dividers shine, it should be with SBN, and therefore with lots of Marro.

160 SBN
60 Marrden Nagrubs x2
50 Marro Warriors
200 Marro Dividers x4
470, 24 hexes

I'd almost rather have grubsx1 and dividersx5 at 490.

Originally Posted by killercactus

Atlaga - 90
Raelin - 170
Minions x3 - 500

As you say, bad army for Raelin. I actually have a tough time really figuring out a strong army for these guys, though. Q10 at 570, maybe? Or maybe some small-ball squadscape:

90 Altaga
330 Minions of Utgar x3
80 Deathreavers x2
50 Marro Warriors
550, 22 hexes

This gives you a little bit of material to throw in front of ranged squads.

Originally Posted by killercactus

Omnicron Repulsors x2 - 80 (can be made x3 if RotV Raelin used)
Omnicron Snipers x2 - 280
Raelin (SotM) - 400
Krav Maga Agents - 500

I see where you're going, but I think if you're bothering to go with the Omnicron combo, I think you need at least 3 sets of Repulsors, and given that, I'd rather a third squad of snipers just to keep the OMs easy to manage.

Originally Posted by killercactus

Migol Ironwill - 110
Axegrinders of the Burning Forge x3 - 320
Major Q9 - 500

I like the Braxas version at 530 more.

[Devil's Advocate]

Originally Posted by Rich10

If I were your opponent, I wouldn't kill the last Protector. The last Protector isn't worth an order marker for you and the 4th Mass wouldn't get the valiant bonus.

You could always shoot your last protector if needed. Or depending on the army could just fly him adjacent to their Q9 or whatever and then would have to attack him if they planned to use that figure. If they choose not to then you have tied down their best figure

[Aldin]

Link for relevance: http://www.heroscapers.com/community/blog.php?b=851

~Aldin, Steamrolled

[Rich10]

Originally Posted by dok

Rich10, I don't think there's any consensus that the MRT will be bad. If anything, I think the emerging consensus is that they are a decent counter to the 4th.

I should not have used the word "consensus". I didn't say "bad"; I said "non competitive". There is a difference to me.

I may be wrong, but I see a 70 point 3 man squad with some bonding (although they lose bonding if two aren't engaged), with (if engaged) 3 attack/3 defense stats and a possibility to avoid being attacked by range with Concealment. They are limited to one figure they can bond with. If I compare them to a 4th Mass/10th Reg type ranged squad or a KOW (with Gilbert)/Dwarves/Gruts/Gladiators type melee squad, I don't see how they compete. They will get killed by melee armies. Against ranged units, they will get held up by a screen and shot. If they are not engaged, they will go down quicker. They may work reasonably well against the 4th Mass (unless the 4th Mass use a KOW screen), but even without a screen, the 4th Mass seem to more than hold their own. If I have missed something, please let me know but I think that they are one of the weaker units in this wave.