The Pre-SoV Workshop

[ryguy266]

Originally Posted by Scytale

A Hero bonding with a Squad isn't exactly prohibited, but we've completely avoided doing so. That's dangerous territory. The list of units doesn't cause any trouble, but we've avoided reverse-bonding for a reason.

There is somewhat of an issue with bonding with the Wildwood Sentinel in that the bonding chains to the Wildwood Runner. And, problematically, both the Runner and the Diorite Defender take a turn after the Sentinel. So one will be waiting "in the queue" while the other is taking a turn, and I'm not a fan of that. Again, I don't think it's actually problematic, but pushing into dangerous territory. Actually, the Granite Guardian's Gain High Ground is also somewhat troublesome, as it is also an after-turn power that will take place at the same point as the Diorite Defender.

Rock Pillars is cool, and I really appreciate an attempt to make a Move 2 figure work (though it probably needs something like Ascend to make it work). I agree that such a slow figure really does need something that gives it more for an order marker, but Determined Bonding is problematic for multiple reasons.

Lots of good points here. I did not think about the Sentinel chain, that is a bit of a puzzle. It's possible I could reword this or remove the hero bonding. As for the Gain High ground, I assume the order would go GG turn -> GHG for the GGs -> DD turn ->GHG for the DD. That doesn't seem problematic to me, but maybe that is not clear. What are some of the reasons against reverse bonding? VC has brought many heroes into play again thanks to squad bonding. This is bringing an obscure squad into play again. It seems like a similar goal, but it's good to know this might be a hard limit.

[ryguy266]

I've reworked the bonding ability and added a "Gain Higher Ground" to the Defender.

Determined Bonding:
After revealing an order marker on this Army Card and taking a turn with Diorite Defender, you may take a turn with any dauntless Hero or Squad you control.

Gain Higher Ground:
After attacking, you may move Diorite Defender 1 space. This space may be up to 6 levels higher.

Rock Pillars remains the same, it seems that people like this ability.

This removes the Sentinel bonding chain problem. It also removes the gain high ground for the Granite Guardians order problem. Now the order will go:
Defender turn: Move, attack, gain higher ground, end turn, bonding
keeping in mind that the "after attacking" is just to indicate when to GHG, not a requirement for the ability.

Thanks for the really good feedback Scytale! I know it doesn't address your issue with the reverse-bonding, but this should address everything else.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by ryguy266

What are some of the reasons against reverse bonding?

There really isn't a specific problem that it causes, it's just a slippery slope. Right now all bonding is S->H or H->H. Adding in H->S significantly increases the entangled web and makes chain bonding more likely and harder to avoid. Just by adding the Diorite Defender would mean we could no longer add bonding to a squad that includes Elementar Heroes, a Guard Heroes, or Resolute Heroes because that would cause chain bonding. (Yes, I know, we could use "reveal order marker language," so it's still possible. Just pointing out the troubles this causes.) We've always avoided it, and I wouldn't be surprised if this didn't get past UF Review for the same reason.

VC in general has also grown weary of bonding after we've overused it. There are other ways to create synergies. Though I recognize that in this case you need a lot more per order marker to be worthwhile.

[ryguy266]

Originally Posted by Scytale

There really isn't a specific problem that it causes, it's just a slippery slope. Right now all bonding is S->H or H->H. Adding in H->S significantly increases the entangled web and makes chain bonding more likely and harder to avoid. Just by adding the Diorite Defender would mean we could no longer add bonding to a squad that includes Elementar Heroes, a Guard Heroes, or Resolute Heroes because that would cause chain bonding. (Yes, I know, we could use "reveal order marker language," so it's still possible. Just pointing out the troubles this causes.) We've always avoided it, and I wouldn't be surprised if this didn't get past UF Review for the same reason.

VC in general has also grown weary of bonding after we've overused it. There are other ways to create synergies. Though I recognize that in this case you need a lot more per order marker to be worthwhile.

These are good points. I'm not going to kick and scream and say that bonding needs to stay. In favor of removing it, I suppose I could add about 2-3 lives, an extra defense and movement point to increase the survivability and just remove the bonding. Clearly thematically he would still fit well with the Granite Guardians but would also still continue to be a solid cheerleader for many other builds.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by ryguy266

These are good points. I'm not going to kick and scream and say that bonding needs to stay. In favor of removing it, I suppose I could add about 2-3 lives, an extra defense and movement point to increase the survivability and just remove the bonding. Clearly thematically he would still fit well with the Granite Guardians but would also still continue to be a solid cheerleader for many other builds.

Giving him a form of Gain High Ground that would move him and all Granite Guardians you control would be cool and would make order markers worthwhile for the hero while moving the army into position.

[ryguy266]

Originally Posted by Scytale

Giving him a form of Gain High Ground that would move him and all Granite Guardians you control would be cool and would make order markers worthwhile for the hero while moving the army into position.

That's an excellent idea. I think "all Elementars you control" is a nice touch since currently that is only the Granite Guardians, but still leaves the door open for future synergy.

[ryguy266]

Updated the Diorite Defender card. It's more durable now, but still has very interesting synergies and abilities. If there is any last-minute changes anyone wants to suggest I'd be happy to hear them! Otherwise I will add the image and hit zone graphics and see what the SOV has to say

[Scytale]

That's really solid (no pun intended).

[ryguy266]

Originally Posted by Scytale

That's really solid (no pun intended).

Appreciate it! Your feedback was crucial!

[Captain Stupendous]

I don't personally love the name Gain Higher Ground. It feels like a "custom-y" version of Gain High Ground. I'd either like to see a new name for the power with the same ability text you currently have, or just reuse the Gain High Ground power. Other than that I really like this!

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Captain Stupendous

I don't personally love the name Gain Higher Ground. It feels like a "custom-y" version of Gain High Ground. I'd either like to see a new name for the power with the same ability text you currently have, or just reuse the Gain High Ground power. Other than that I really like this!

I disagree on that point. I like that it's a "slightly better" variant of Gain High Ground, because that's exactly what the power is. It's like Improved Cyberclaw vs Cyberclaw.

[Captain Stupendous]

Originally Posted by Scytale

I disagree on that point. I like that it's a "slightly better" variant of Gain High Ground, because that's exactly what the power is. It's like Improved Cyberclaw vs Cyberclaw.

I think part of what throws me is the change from Granite Guardians to all Elementars breaks some of the parallelism. I'd expect a power with such a similar name to effect the same pool of figures. If the word "elementars" in the power was just replaced with "granite guardians" I'd be fine with reusing the power name in this way. This might just be me though.