Do Soulborgs have souls?

[johnny139]

I'd say Soulborgs have souls - simply based on the premise of HeroScape, which draws on the concept of Valhalla, where warriors go after they die in battle. I'd always sort of assumed that Soulborgs were called as such to keep in line with that concept... they're not simply weapons, they're actual living beings, and thus "count" for Valhalla.

However, D&DScape complicates things. I'd say the Iron Golem and Elementals definitely wouldn't have souls, as they're artificial constructs animated via magic. So how they got to Valhalla, who knows?

[ibechief]

Originally Posted by johnny139

I'd say Soulborgs have souls - simply based on the premise of HeroScape, which draws on the concept of Valhalla, where warriors go after they die in battle. I'd always sort of assumed that Soulborgs were called as such to keep in line with that concept... they're not simply weapons, they're actual living beings, and thus "count" for Valhalla.

However, D&DScape complicates things. I'd say the Iron Golem and Elementals definitely wouldn't have souls, as they're artificial constructs animated via magic. So how they got to Valhalla, who knows?

Maybe they were animated after the magic users arrived?

[Kroc]

Originally Posted by ibechief

Maybe they were animated after the magic users arrived?

Hey, I love johnny139's point here. In order to get to Valhalla you have to be near death, but can you die if you don't have a soul?
Of course ibechief has a valid rejoinder, ahh, the problem with philosophical arguments.

Actually I think, practically speaking, that chas has the best in-game definition. If it stays on the battlefield once placed then it has a soul. Of course... that raises the question of Beast Boy's various forms. (Just kidding, sort of.)

I do think that IshMEL's summary is fairly clear. In official Heroscape the general exceptions to using a power are:
a) They affect flesh (with the Lycanthorpy I'd say it was because you have to be bitten.)
b) They do not affect destructible objects.
Otherwise there aren't any. Of course customs can go there own way, but I think the precedents are fairly locked in.

Isn't this just a blast to talk about? Funnest new thread I've seen in a while.

[Just_a_Bill]

Originally Posted by johnny139

However, D&DScape complicates things. I'd say the Iron Golem and Elementals definitely wouldn't have souls, as they're artificial constructs animated via magic. So how they got to Valhalla, who knows?

With the irreversible influence of D&D, and the increasing variety, scope, and acceptance (?) of customs projects (C3x, HoSS, HoME, HoST), it may be that there is now more than one way for figures to enter Valhalla. Through wave 10, everything was either native to this realm or summoned by a general. Conceptually, most* of those figures from other planets/times/universes had no way to get here themselves, and most if not all were interpretable as sentient beings snatched moments before death.

But, as Johnny points out, not everything in D&DScape fits this template. The D&D mythos does have its own ways of moving to and from various worlds and planes, so it's at least conceptually possible that some magic-user from that realm sent the constructs here, or brought them along with him when he himself was summoned, or retrieved them in his own way after he was already here. (*Actually, I believe this threshold was already officially crossed in Marvel. I'm no comic-book expert, but Thanos is a master-of-time-and-space kind of guy, yes?)

Once we make the jump from the "official inserts" of Marvel and D&D to the unofficial inserts, this issue becomes even more essential to consider for those properties that have their own ways to bridge space and time, such as Doctor Who. (Was the Doctor summoned? Or, more likely, is the TARDIS to blame as usual?)

I've been thinking about this in the context of the fledgling Heroes of Star Trek project ... did Einar or Jandar summon Kirk's crew? Or did they come here on their own? (Certainly we do not want the Enterprise in orbit of Valhalla, but perhaps the crew arrived in a damaged shuttlecraft, or just appeared on the planet, as the result of some kind of transwarp/time-travel accident. Or they stepped through the Guardian of Forever, or....)

Anyway, all I'm really trying to say is, D&D has forever altered Heroscape's official storyline in several ways; perhaps one of those changes is that being summoned is not the only way to reach Valhalla.

Although I still think we need to assume/pretend/contrive that Constructs have souls, can be Mind Shackled, can receive Healing by word, touch, or dragon lick, are inspired by Viking Spirits, can be Stared or Gazed into dying or crapping their pants, etc. There'd just be too much errata otherwise.

[Hogg]

Soulborgs have souls. That's part of the Heroscape backstory.

Elementals, Constructs, and Golems do not have souls. Warforged might, I haven't payed a lot of attention to 4e. They can be resrurected but lose their memories iirc. I don't think its a clear issue in the DnD universe.

Dungeons and Dragons units being in Valhalla break the reality of Heroscape and DnD very badly. I will do my best to explain.

The problem with DnD units in Valhalla has to do with clerical powers and the existence of elementals. Elementals can only exist in two places, their native plane, and the prime material plane, if they were summoned. Their being in Valhalla establishes it as part of the Prime Material Plane. It probably has its own (portal-less) sphere via Spelljammer rules, or a separate section of the PMP via Planescape rules.

But we have to consider the clerics and paladins. We have Ana Karithon, a cleric to Sune in the Forgotten Realms. And also Rhogar who is a paladin to an unspecified deity in Eberron. Both of them have their powers in Valhalla which indicates that both deities have influence on that plane. However, I don't know of any provision in the DnD rules that would allow that to happen. The deities from different campaign settings are kept separate. If a cleric from Dragonlance wanders into the Forgotten Realms he is just a crappy fighter until he goes home.

Its a small, really obscure technicality, but it's one of the things that really bugged me about them incorporating DnD into Heroscape. If they had kept going with it we might have seen a more official acceptance of Heroscape into the DnD universe with some kind of explanation for the existence of Valhalla. My guess is its some kind of sub-plane on the PMP that somehow allows for clerics to communicate with deities on their home plane.

[ibechief]

Originally Posted by Hogg

The deities from different campaign settings are kept separate. If a cleric from Dragonlance wanders into the Forgotten Realms he is just a crappy fighter until he goes home.

You forget that clerics can draw power and spells from holy relics and symbols of their faith. Artifacts as well.

[Hogg]

Originally Posted by ibechief

You forget that clerics can draw power and spells from holy relics and symbols of their faith. Artifacts as well.

There are some exceptions but thet're so small they're amlost not worth talking about. Heres a summary of the Spelljammer rules:

Religion

Nothing illustrates the limits of the gods better then the philogiston, where priests are completely unable to recover their spells (their ability to man a helm is not effected, however). Moreover, all deities cannot be contacted in all spheres. Unless a diety already has an established band of worshippers (100 worshippers for at least a year seems to be the minimum requirement) within that sphere a priest must go to extrordinairy lengths to stay in touch. For this reason many dieties highly encourage their priests to establish temples and centers of worship in new spheres, hoping to expand their influence. In some spheres, notably Realmspace, an "Overgod" exists who can deny a diety access to that sphere even if the required number of worshipers is reached.

[Porkins]

If Soulborgs did not have souls, wouldn't they be called "Borgs"?

[killercactus]

I don't care what anyone says - Q9 has no soul. Maybe he sold it to the devil to get his special attack.

[ibechief]

Originally Posted by Hogg

There are some exceptions but thet're so small they're amlost not worth talking about. Heres a summary of the Spelljammer rules:

Religion

Nothing illustrates the limits of the gods better then the philogiston, where priests are completely unable to recover their spells (their ability to man a helm is not effected, however). Moreover, all deities cannot be contacted in all spheres. Unless a diety already has an established band of worshippers (100 worshippers for at least a year seems to be the minimum requirement) within that sphere a priest must go to extrordinairy lengths to stay in touch. For this reason many dieties highly encourage their priests to establish temples and centers of worship in new spheres, hoping to expand their influence. In some spheres, notably Realmspace, an "Overgod" exists who can deny a diety access to that sphere even if the required number of worshipers is reached.

Yep this is almost word for word from the book. But when talking about situations like this any explanation no matter how obscure is relevant.

[Porkins]

Originally Posted by killercactus

I don't care what anyone says - Q9 has no soul. Maybe he sold it to the devil to get his special attack.

Maybe Runa stole it from him with her Helm of Mitonsoul.

[IshMEL]

Thanks all for this, ah, spirited discussion. Very helpful for me as I do customs, and I've got a bunch of revisions to make to my cards now! For my own purpose, I'll use "Animate" as a species (all Animates are Constructs, but not all Constructs are Animates, which reverses the expectation for species / class, but oh well) for creatures which lack their own "spirit" and thus are immune to Soul Weapons, etc.

My criteria for "Animates" are, it must depend on the presence of another unit on the battlefield for its continued existence, movement, or attack. So for instance the Rechets, while they are summoned, can go on moving and attacking even after Iskra is gone. But my Helmed Horrors fall apart if their Creator is gone, so they have no "spirit" of their own. I'm working on a Slaughterstone Eviscerator which will require a nearby friendly unit to operate, and that will also be an "Animate," with the "immune to attacks that do not affect DO" language in there somewhere.

One thing I still don't get is why Fledgling Lightning doesn't harm DOs. I don't even own any Blue Wyrmlings (yet), so it's not a big deal, just sort of a head-scratcher.

So, I'm glad we have finally settled the question, "Can a vampire drain the life out of a Golem?" That's why you've gotta love this game!