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View Poll Results: Who do you believe is the better cavalry?
Templar Cavalry 62 63.92%
Grok Riders 35 36.08%
Voters: 97. You may not vote on this poll

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  #13  
Old July 11th, 2009, 10:20 PM
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Re: Unit Debate #5 -- Templar Cavalry Vs. Grok Riders

groks bond and with that they could get four attacks a turn plus as far as heros go they have the cheaper ones and in a fight I would pick the groks over the knights.(hint I voted for the groks)

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  #14  
Old July 11th, 2009, 10:53 PM
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Re: Unit Debate #5 -- Templar Cavalry Vs. Grok Riders

I went with templar calvary. I realize that the Groks bond with Ne-Gok-Sa, which is awesome.

Templar Calvary Advantages:
1. Speed
2. Cost
3. Valiant (good with 4th mass)
4. Great against Krav Maga and Q9
5. Defense bonus against medium/small figures when adjacent


Grok Riders Advantages:
1. Good/cheap bonding options
2. Having one set might be better than one set of templar (Ne-Gok-Sa)


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  #15  
Old July 12th, 2009, 05:13 PM
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Re: Unit Debate #5 -- Templar Cavalry Vs. Grok Riders

I'de say the templar, I've always liked them and besides cost don't see why some people think they aren't good. They're fast, hit really hard and make great hero killers(especially if they follow utgar). I've done tons of damage using them and are pretty much one of the funnest squads to play with. If u draft sir dubois with them u can use him to engage first, then shoot in with the templar, and if for some odd reason theres actually any units left enagaged, dubois will now be beefed up with at least +1 or more to his attack. plus they are probably pne of the coolest looking squads in the game IMO.
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  #16  
Old July 12th, 2009, 09:36 PM
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Re: Unit Debate #5 -- Templar Cavalry Vs. Grok Riders

I have added a new guideline:

6. Best Strategic Use

Maybe more discusssion can happen?

MegaSilver
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  #17  
Old July 13th, 2009, 09:02 AM
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Re: Unit Debate #5 -- Templar Cavalry Vs. Grok Riders

Hrmmmmm......this is a toughie.......



TEMPLAR CAVALRY:

Pros:
Lower cost
Higher Move
Four defense against adjacent small/medium squaddies
Potentially three attacks of six
Immune to small figure destroying abilities

Cons:
No bonding
Only three attack without any bonuses



GROK RIDERS:


Pros:
Bonding with two relatively cheap heroes
A wider range of situations where they can get five attack

Cons:
Higher cost
Lower move
No defense bonus





I'll probably end up voting for the Templar.


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  #18  
Old July 13th, 2009, 10:27 AM
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Re: Unit Debate #5 -- Templar Cavalry Vs. Grok Riders

Quote:
Originally Posted by MegaSilver View Post
I have added a new guideline:

6. Best Strategic Use

Maybe more discusssion can happen?

MegaSilver
I don't like that guideline, at least for this debate. Maybe your next debate will change my mind, but you have been chosing units that are VERY similar, like the Groks v The cavalry, or the 4th vs. the 10th. Those squads are so similar that they both have the same basic use - groks and cavalry as a (very) fast moving melee and the 4th and 10th as the "sit back and wait" ranged squad.

Unless you mean like how you should draft Ne-Gok-Sa with the groks, in which case we have been saying that sort of thing all along.

Last edited by Warlord Alpha; July 13th, 2009 at 10:33 AM.
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  #19  
Old July 13th, 2009, 10:59 AM
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Re: Unit Debate #5 -- Templar Cavalry Vs. Grok Riders

I think the Templars are better because they look great. Neither unit is particularly good in a game.
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  #20  
Old July 13th, 2009, 11:02 AM
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Re: Unit Debate #5 -- Templar Cavalry Vs. Grok Riders

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlord Alpha View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MegaSilver View Post
I have added a new guideline:

6. Best Strategic Use

Maybe more discusssion can happen?

MegaSilver
I don't like that guideline, at least for this debate. Maybe your next debate will change my mind, but you have been chosing units that are VERY similar, like the Groks v The cavalry, or the 4th vs. the 10th. Those squads are so similar that they both have the same basic use - groks and cavalry as a (very) fast moving melee and the 4th and 10th as the "sit back and wait" ranged squad.

Unless you mean like how you should draft Ne-Gok-Sa with the groks, in which case we have been saying that sort of thing all along.
True, it may not work with this debate, but it's better to have it thier just in case.

Also for NGS, as an example, he moves much slower than the Groks. How would you plan moving him and the Groks so that they could recieve his bonus? For the Templar Cavalry how would you move out Sir Dupius with them so he can recieve thier bonus? That is the kind of strategy I am looking for. It can vary greatly among players.

MegaSilver
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  #21  
Old July 13th, 2009, 11:11 AM
Warlord Alpha Warlord Alpha is offline
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Re: Unit Debate #5 -- Templar Cavalry Vs. Grok Riders

Quote:
Originally Posted by MegaSilver View Post
True, it may not work with this debate, but it's better to have it thier just in case.

Also for NGS, as an example, he moves much slower than the Groks. How would you plan moving him and the Groks so that they could recieve his bonus? For the Templar Cavalry how would you move out Sir Dupius with them so he can recieve thier bonus? That is the kind of strategy I am looking for. It can vary greatly among players.

MegaSilver
Well, for NGS, you might have to move the groks slower by default because of their double base, but I would just move the groks slower. Its worth it, because you lose a fast 3-attack squad and gain a slower 5-attack squad with a 4th member who gets a free chance to mindshackle and has 3 attack. And with that many figures somebody is bound to get a height advantage.

And, of course, if you need a faster squad to hunt down a running syvaris or something you can always let NGS go at his own pace or engage someone else.
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  #22  
Old July 13th, 2009, 12:49 PM
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Re: Unit Debate #5 -- Templar Cavalry Vs. Grok Riders

Templars. They might be a bit fragile for their points, but they hit like a ton of bricks when used well.

An army builds I think can do well in fun games.

240 Templar Cav x2
380 KoW x2
485 Sir Gilbert
495 Isamu

Use the Knights first to start a melee screen, leaving the Templars well back. Once the enemy has engaged your Knights you want to bring the Templars in with their charge bonus to wipe out whatever your knights are holding down. One of the really cool things about this build is the unusual way you can use Gilbert.
Bond him with the knights as normal, but when it comes to Jandars Dispatch, you use it to move the Templar AWAY from the enemy lines. One of the biggest problems the Templars face is that once they get close in with the enemy they lose their charge bonus. Gilbert can take care of that.

So long as you aren't engaged you can use Dispatch to back them up just enough spaces to get their charge bonus. I seem to get between one and three move most times with Dispatch, and that's usually just enough to start me four spaces away from my opponents next line. With their eight move, Dispatch is unnecessary for getting the Templar into the fray, they need it to get backed up for that running start.

These guys make great big hero killers. Three attacks of six take Krug down before he gets a chance to use that beefy swing of his, and even attacking with three attacks of five means Charos isn't likely to counterstrike, and will probably go down in two turns or less. Jotun also can't do much, as with just three knights and eight move they can engage without becoming adjacent and they are too large to throw.

Templars are brutal when used correctly, though they suffer the same fater as all melee units against range. (less than most with their huge move though)
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  #23  
Old July 13th, 2009, 02:21 PM
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Re: Unit Debate #5 -- Templar Cavalry Vs. Grok Riders

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlord Alpha View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MegaSilver View Post
True, it may not work with this debate, but it's better to have it thier just in case.

Also for NGS, as an example, he moves much slower than the Groks. How would you plan moving him and the Groks so that they could recieve his bonus? For the Templar Cavalry how would you move out Sir Dupius with them so he can recieve thier bonus? That is the kind of strategy I am looking for. It can vary greatly among players.

MegaSilver
Well, for NGS, you might have to move the groks slower by default because of their double base, but I would just move the groks slower. Its worth it, because you lose a fast 3-attack squad and gain a slower 5-attack squad with a 4th member who gets a free chance to mindshackle and has 3 attack. And with that many figures somebody is bound to get a height advantage.

And, of course, if you need a faster squad to hunt down a running syvaris or something you can always let NGS go at his own pace or engage someone else.
Or take two squads of Groks and move them as a horde until you get into striking distance. That way you effectively double Ne-Gok-Sa's.

To me the Templars and the Groks are verry different units.

The Templars are an Elite Melee unit (that has a price that's too high for most armys). They're almost a unique squad that has the option of taking a second unit. I'd say they're a solid counterdraft to pricey commons with ~3-4 defense, especially ones that follow Utgar.

Whereas the Grok Riders are an army core unit (who's price is also too high). The Groks have two excellent bonding options, though we (the community) seems to think that neither works particularly well with them.

In draft, I'd say the Templars win out hands-down. In a pre-build army however, their usefulness is reduced because of how infrequently expensive commons show up. Atlaga might change this if he really does make Minions and Sentinals more popular, but their high defenses counter could cause the Templars problems.

I think the Groks have the ability to perform better in a constructed army than the Templars do, though not at a tournament level.

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  #24  
Old July 14th, 2009, 02:54 AM
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Re: Unit Debate #5 -- Templar Cavalry Vs. Grok Riders

I wrote up a comparison of these guys a while ago.

Bottom line? You can get two squads of valiant Templars for 240. For double Groks and someone to bond with, you'll pay 310, 350, or 400 depending on your Marro Warlords. Me-Burq-Sa and Ne-Gok-Sa are good figures to bond with, but the Templars win on price.
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