The Book of The Crow

[Lord Pyre]

Sorry I haven't responded yet. Got your guys' messages though!

There's a ton of discussion here and I haven't plowed through all of it yet, but let's hit some major points.

The Crow is a character that came back to life to avenge himself and his fiance. He has a mystical Crow that guides him. The bird actually joins in the fights, gouging eyes and what have you. And once the villains figure out that wounding the bird makes Eric vulnerable, they target the bird.

So multiple Crow markers is definitely out, since that marker specifically represents an actual Crow, of which he only has one. The -1 defense is the bird doing some eye-gouging and general distractions and annoyances.

For theme of him avenging multiple figures, yes it's not technically correct since it's not his fiance, but that's the whole point of his character. Ronan doesn't usually switch his accused constantly. And Winter Solider definitely doesn't go into stasis over and over in the same battle. But it's representative of the character in a unique way, and fitting for this game's mechanics.

Him leaving the battlefield isn't great either. He only really went away in the film because he was so wounded. Plus then I'd never want to draft him.

So how about nipping this in the bud in a quick, easy, and thematic way? Make it so you can actually kill the Crow like in the film.

LIVE FOR VENGEANCE
At the start of the game, choose an opponent's Unique Hero that is not The Crow and place the black Crow Marker on the chosen figure's card. While your Crow Marker is on another Army Card, that figure rolls one fewer defense die. If the figure with your Crow Marker on its card is removed from the battlefield or receives one or more wounds from a normal or special attack, place your Crow Marker on this card and roll the 20-sided die. On a roll of 1-5, remove the Crow Marker from the game. While the Crow Marker is in play, The Crow will not take wounds from any attack.

This way your opponent is much more rewarded for going after that marker.And any stats or number can be tweaked without worrying about my input. Do what you want there!

And I'd highly suggest just checking out this film! The comic is hard to get your hands on, but I think the film is on Netflix right now. It's a classic, and it would help to have a few more people who know the character.

[laughing matter]

Actually L_O, you're wrong.

The Crow did come back again in a crossover with another 90's character called Razor that James O'Barr helped work on, in collaboration with the series writer, as well as doing the cover art. In this series, Eric fought a demonic gang, and was forced to confront the guilt brought on by his belief that he should have been able to stop his fiance's murder (which is pretty unfair to himself, considering the fact that he was paralyzed), but this isn't the only other Crow series.

There have been 12 total comic book characters to become The Crow, and I doubt that we're going to get 12 versions of The Crow in C3G, so why not let this Crow come back more than once (which is established in the comics, and is unique to Eric Draven) instead of making all 12 versions.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Lord Pyre

Ronan doesn't usually switch his accused constantly.

I'd just like to note that he actually doesn't in game, either (though I'll admit Winter Soldier is really weird - at least then, though, it's something he does, though the timeframe may be extremely wonky.)

[laughing matter]

Originally Posted by Lord Pyre

Sorry I haven't responded yet. Got your guys' messages though!

There's a ton of discussion here and I haven't plowed through all of it yet, but let's hit some major points.

The Crow is a character that came back to life to avenge himself and his fiance. He has a mystical Crow that guides him. The bird actually joins in the fights, gouging eyes and what have you. And once the villains figure out that wounding the bird makes Eric vulnerable, they target the bird.

So multiple Crow markers is definitely out, since that marker specifically represents an actual Crow, of which he only has one. The -1 defense is the bird doing some eye-gouging and general distractions and annoyances.

For theme of him avenging multiple figures, yes it's not technically correct since it's not his fiance, but that's the whole point of his character. Ronan doesn't usually switch his accused constantly. And Winter Solider definitely doesn't go into stasis over and over in the same battle. But it's representative of the character in a unique way, and fitting for this game's mechanics.

Him leaving the battlefield isn't great either. He only really went away in the film because he was so wounded. Plus then I'd never want to draft him.

So how about nipping this in the bud in a quick, easy, and thematic way? Make it so you can actually kill the Crow like in the film.

This way your opponent is much more rewarded for going after that marker.And any stats or number can be tweaked without worrying about my input. Do what you want there!

And I'd highly suggest just checking out this film! The comic is hard to get your hands on, but I think the film is on Netflix right now. It's a classic, and it would help to have a few more people who know the character.

I actually think that the biggest issue with the design was this line

"The Crow will not take wounds from any attack"

and giving a very small target that can make The Crow vulnerable if you hit it doesn't really help as much when The Crow is completely unkillable the rest of the time.

[Lazy Orang]

Plus there's the problem that the defensive aspect is so useful you're never going to want to go after the Crow'd figure to lose it and will instead have Crow attack everyone but his target.

[quozl]

LP's suggestion added to the revised version of The Crow we have been testing:

NAME = THE CROW
SECRET IDENTITY = ERIC DRAVEN

SPECIES = UNDEAD
UNIQUENESS = EVENT HERO
CLASS = REVENANT
PERSONALITY = VENGEFUL

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 5

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 5
ATTACK = 4
DEFENSE = 4

POINTS = 190

SET THE WRONG THINGS RIGHT
Start the game with the black Crow Marker on this card. If the Crow Marker is on this card and any other figure you control is attacked and destroyed by an opponent’s figure, you may place your Crow Marker on the attacking figure's Army Card. If a figure with your Crow Marker on its card is removed from the battlefield or your opponent loses control of that figure, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 5 or lower, remove the Crow Marker from the game. If you roll 6 or higher, place your Crow Marker on this card.

LIVE FOR VENGEANCE
While your Crow Marker is on another Army Card, if The Crow would receive one or more wounds, ignore one of those wounds. Any Unique Hero with your Crow Marker on its Army Card rolls one fewer defense die.

DOUBLE ATTACK
When The Crow attacks, he may attack one additional time.

[Tornado]

I like it LP. Very Mr. Mxy.

I would prefer to try to work it that way. I like the idea of shooting your own figure in hopes of killing the crow. That drips with theme.
(Though I admit I hated this aspect in the original design, this feels like you have a better chance your figure could live. You could get lucky and kill the crow with the first shot.)

[Tornado]

The only problem with that is you can kill The Crow first.

Could he start off the battlefield and then be placed next to the figure withe Crow Marker or in his SZ?

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by quozl

LP's suggestion added to the revised version of The Crow we have been testing:

This, in all honesty, still contains every single theme issue I mentioned, or that dok mentioned. I'm starting to feel like I'm going to have to test this guy just so I can put Fail at the top of the test sheet.

[laughing matter]

Have you read the comics? Or seen the movie? To me, a Crow design should hit the main beats of the story.

1. The Crow returns from the dead as an unkillable revenant.
2. The Crow's kills the people responsible for his, and his fiance's murder
3. The Crow returns to the grave to be with Shelly.

IMO, what I proposed captured all of those elements, as well as the stories that occurred after the original series, and all of the other avatars of The Crow spirit. From all the version 2 complaints I've heard around the forums, trying to prevent the need for a new version of The Crow should be a fairly important thing to think about, especially with an indy character.

[quozl]

Everyone: we are not making a new design. We are tweaking this existing design so it is not overpowered in a competitive environment.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by laughing matter

Have you read the comics? Or seen the movie? To me, a Crow design should hit the main beats of the story.

1. The Crow returns from the dead as an unkillable revenant.
2. The Crow's kills the people responsible for his, and his fiance's murder
3. The Crow returns to the grave to be with Shelly.

IMO, what I proposed captured all of those elements, as well as the stories that occurred after the original series, and all of the other avatars of The Crow spirit. From all the version 2 complaints I've heard around the forums, trying to prevent the need for a new version of The Crow should be a fairly important thing to think about, especially with an indy character.

As I said at the very start of this conversation, I saw the film less than a week ago specifically as research for this design. I also looked up the comic on Wikipedia. It is because of this that I can say, without a shadow of a doubt, that the present design breaks the theme utterly.

Originally Posted by quozl

Everyone: we are not making a new design. We are tweaking this existing design so it is not overpowered in a competitive environment.

Then we'll end up with a design called The Crow that in no way accurately represents what The Crow is and how The Crow works. In the words of the immortal Tony Stark:

If we want a design that represents the character, we need to be willing to stretch the original design a bit (which the present proposed design is already doing).