Heroscapers
Go Back   Heroscapers > Official Classic HeroScape > HeroScape General Discussion
HeroScape General Discussion General discussions of packaging, terrain, components, etc. If it doesn't fit in any other official category, put it here.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old August 12th, 2015, 10:46 AM
wriggz's Avatar
wriggz wriggz is offline
Friendly Neighborhood Librarian
 
Join Date: January 15, 2009
Location: Canada - Ontario - Toronto
Posts: 3,277
Images: 25
wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death!
Are the 10th Bad Guys?

The other day I noticed German WWII soliders listed on a Model train website. Got me thinking if I would want to promote Nazis in my custom game. Then I thought about the American Civil war figures that are in the mail right now.

You may have noticed I'm Canadian. Our history does not paint the Confederates in a very favourable light. I wouldn't be suprised if, to many Canadains the confederates are a bunch of slave driving racists, only slightly removed from the the previously mentioned Nazis.

Then I got thinking about the 4th and the 10th, and wondering if Americans look down on the 10th as british oppressiors, not that much different than those listed above. Whereas to me the 4th are representitive of the Invaders that attacked Toronto (York) during the War of 1812 piliging the settlement and burning down the Government. To me the 10th represent the military that protected Canada from becoming another territory of the expansionist USA, working with, not against the native population. This doesn't even begin to get into the Mohican River tribe.

I wonder if Italian and Greek members of this community feel the same way about the Roman Legos, Gladiators or Sacred Band.

So are the 10th Bad guys? I suppose it is up to history to judge.


wriggz's custom Figures and Terrain

Have a Question? Take it to the Dump.

Want to Learn More? Go to the Library.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old August 12th, 2015, 12:42 PM
Aldin's Avatar
Aldin Aldin is offline
Site Admin & Professional SideBoarder
 
Join Date: September 22, 2006
Location: TN - Nashville
Posts: 13,544
Images: 1
Blog Entries: 4
Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer
Re: Are the 10th Bad Guys?

Potentially, this is a huge topic. In the present time, there seems to be a very real question of what responsibility anyone has either individually or collectively for the past actions of others from whom they in some way have a line of descent. Let me state the problem thusly:

Imagine I had stolen $1M, using the money to better myself and my lineage. Clearly, I should be subject to some sort of just punishment for my actions. Let's say I wasn't caught and fast forward a few years after I've fallen down a manhole and died.

My son used that money to go to Harvard and is now running a successful business. My crime is discovered. What is his level of accountability? He in many ways owes his position in life to my crime and quite possibly has some of the original money still around. He may, in fact have even more money that was originally stolen. So what is right to do with respect to him? But let's say I wasn't caught while my son was alive. Instead, several generations have passed.

My descendants are wealthy. Building over the generations from the stolen wealth they have become doctors, lawyers, and politicians. They are well-connected and well-regarded. They run several charitable organizations - and then they day comes when my crime is discovered. Do they have any culpability?

We live in a time where almost everyone's history has a skeleton in the closet somewhere - an imbalance of our cosmic scale. How gnarly do those skeletons need to be and in what sort of time frame for accountability to pass in some way down to us?

In some ways, the easy answer is "wipe the slate clean". Of course, my descendants benefiting from the stolen money are going to like that answer a lot better than the descendants of the guy I stole it from. Frankly, it isn't clear to me that is is possible to make restitution for the things that have been done in the past. And I'm not convinced that trying is likely to create the best possible outcomes.

But I don't know. I've told my kids "life's not fair" so many times and it isn't and I want them to own that personally. I never want them to expect fairness. I want them to expect that they will get less than what they are "owed". My hope is that they will then work harder for better outcomes and will be satisfied with the result of their labor. And if they do get full value or more, then it is a pleasant surprise.

But my family is reasonably well off and living in a fairly powerful country with significant economic resources. Would I feel the same way about my "life's not fair" mantra if we were living in North Korea? I really don't know.

~Aldin, fascinatedly

He either fears his fate too much
or his desserts are small
That dares not put it to the touch
to gain or lose it all
~James Graham
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old August 12th, 2015, 01:07 PM
wriggz's Avatar
wriggz wriggz is offline
Friendly Neighborhood Librarian
 
Join Date: January 15, 2009
Location: Canada - Ontario - Toronto
Posts: 3,277
Images: 25
wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death!
Re: Are the 10th Bad Guys?

I think it is less about how the past impact the future (you aren't responsible for what you didn't do), but more about how we veiw the past.

If your grandfather was a pirate, there was a time when you would feel shame. Now a days the ame pirate grandfather would be cool, you could even cast him as herioc. History has a funny way of turning around like that.

I guess what bothers me is when history is "spun" to bolster or villianize someones current position (see you aren't reponsable above) and when we forget the facts of history. The american war of independance is the British civil war. The American civil war could have become the confederate war of independance.

Is it okay to popularize the Confederates like we do Pirates, should they be taboo like Nazis, or are they an in between case like Gangsters? Should the British be universially cast as oppressors, or is it okay that Americans and Canadians look at them in differnt light? These are the questions of history that are worth asking even if there are no answers.


wriggz's custom Figures and Terrain

Have a Question? Take it to the Dump.

Want to Learn More? Go to the Library.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old August 12th, 2015, 01:27 PM
Tornado's Avatar
Tornado Tornado is offline
Fan Fiction Prompt Master
 
Join Date: August 11, 2010
Location: USA - MI - Kalamazoo (Climax)
Posts: 24,042
Images: 253
Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth
Re: Are the 10th Bad Guys?

In response to wriggz's first post, I think he nailed it with his final statement. It is a 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder' type thing and also 'history is written by the winners'.

Aldin's question is almost as deep as religion though not as polarizing(at least that is my theory)and I await the discussion in anticipation.

I do not think popularizing Confederates is a good thing right now. Perhaps someday that will change but I hope not. What happened during slavery was our darkest hour though the treatment of Native Americans is right up there. The fact is that our great land was first stolen and then terrible acts were perpetrated before we got to where we are today. Is anyone a good guy?

Trying to figure out who were the bad guys is a tough order and a matter of perspective.

Edit: One group of Confederates I did/do like were The Beverly Hillbillies. Though they are more 'mountain folk', Granny was the only hardcore Confederate.

A cloud can change its semblance, yet retain its will
With the intimacy of destruction, One knows what it is to be alive
The empty sky holds no reflection, for sorrow
- Eslo Rudkey
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old August 12th, 2015, 01:39 PM
kolakoski's Avatar
kolakoski kolakoski is online now
worthless thread clother
 
Join Date: July 15, 2008
Location: USA - NY - NYC
Posts: 5,044
Images: 3821
Blog Entries: 326
kolakoski is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla kolakoski is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla kolakoski is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla kolakoski is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla kolakoski is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla kolakoski is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla kolakoski is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla kolakoski is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla kolakoski is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla kolakoski is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla
Re: Are the 10th Bad Guys?

Well met!

Clearly, the demonization of Confederate culture as it relates to slavery, and Nazii Germany as it relates to the Holocaust, are justified. Doing the same to the soldiers in general, however, is not so clearly just. There have been a number of movies over the years that depict Axis soldiers in WWII as "good guys" in bad situations. Admiring cool uniforms, gear, and the nobility of individual soldiers in war is one thing. Condoning the regimes they belonged to as justification for such admiration is something else. Practically all of the units in the game, except perhaps the Elves, could be considered "bad guys," if they are judged by the flaws in the cultures for which they fight - depending on your point of view.

In my Heroscape Valhalla, WWII era German soldiers are "good" or "bad" solely on the basis of how I chose to (role) play them.



Next Generation

Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old August 12th, 2015, 01:42 PM
IAmBatman's Avatar
IAmBatman IAmBatman is offline
Has Bigger Cockles
 
Join Date: February 15, 2007
Location: USA - AL - Montgomery
Posts: 98,207
Images: 93
IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer
Re: Are the 10th Bad Guys?

Except the dragons and Grimnak's ride, man! They're just trying to get a bite to eat.

C3G can be played with official Heroscape, but it's not recommended.


DISCLAIMER: C3G claims no ownership of the characters or artwork used for C3G customs. All rights for the characters belong to their respective publishers/creators. C3G cards are not intended for sale, and C3G does not authorize any party to profit from C3G cards.

Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old August 12th, 2015, 01:50 PM
Aldin's Avatar
Aldin Aldin is offline
Site Admin & Professional SideBoarder
 
Join Date: September 22, 2006
Location: TN - Nashville
Posts: 13,544
Images: 1
Blog Entries: 4
Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Aldin is a wielder of the Ban Hammer
Re: Are the 10th Bad Guys?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
(you aren't responsible for what you didn't do)
Well... okay... but you can posit the same question in a different way.

If someone hands me $1M and says they stole it so I could start a business, I would be responsible for choosing whether or not to take advantage of that opportunity. I'm clearly not responsible for the theft, only for what is done in the moment and how much advantage I'm willing to accept from that illegal action. How removed do I need to be from the theft in time, space and awareness before my conscience gives it a pass and allows me to take advantage of the opportunity?

For the rest of it, I think you just go with whatever is popular since the point isn't so much to correctly answer to history as it is to form a consensus with our peers. If we are currently vilifying the Nazis and praising the Romans, who's to gainsay it? And a hundred years from now when we're vilifying the USA and praising Argentina, well, there we'll be.

~Aldin, responsibly

He either fears his fate too much
or his desserts are small
That dares not put it to the touch
to gain or lose it all
~James Graham
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old August 12th, 2015, 02:32 PM
quozl's Avatar
quozl quozl is online now
Silly quozl, dinosaurs are for orcs!
 
Join Date: January 11, 2008
Location: USA - WA - Vancouver
Posts: 23,368
Images: 121
Blog Entries: 3
quozl is a wielder of the Ban Hammer quozl is a wielder of the Ban Hammer quozl is a wielder of the Ban Hammer quozl is a wielder of the Ban Hammer quozl is a wielder of the Ban Hammer quozl is a wielder of the Ban Hammer quozl is a wielder of the Ban Hammer quozl is a wielder of the Ban Hammer quozl is a wielder of the Ban Hammer quozl is a wielder of the Ban Hammer quozl is a wielder of the Ban Hammer quozl is a wielder of the Ban Hammer quozl is a wielder of the Ban Hammer quozl is a wielder of the Ban Hammer quozl is a wielder of the Ban Hammer
Re: Are the 10th Bad Guys?

The question can be answered thusly:

How do you feel when Grimnak chomps them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Van Ness View Post
I highly recommend C3V and C3G customs!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old August 12th, 2015, 02:38 PM
SlipperySlope's Avatar
SlipperySlope SlipperySlope is offline
 
Join Date: July 5, 2011
Location: USA - IN - Madison
Posts: 621
Images: 30
SlipperySlope knows what's in an order marker SlipperySlope knows what's in an order marker SlipperySlope knows what's in an order marker
Re: Are the 10th Bad Guys?

Quote:
Originally Posted by quozl View Post
The question can be answered thusly:

How do you feel when Grimnak chomps them?
I will feel that Grimnak just ate 18.75 points of my army.

"It's better to ask for forgiveness than permission."
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old August 12th, 2015, 02:39 PM
wriggz's Avatar
wriggz wriggz is offline
Friendly Neighborhood Librarian
 
Join Date: January 15, 2009
Location: Canada - Ontario - Toronto
Posts: 3,277
Images: 25
wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death! wriggz is hot lava death!
Re: Are the 10th Bad Guys?

Quote:
The question can be answered thusly:

How do you feel when Grimnak chomps them?
This does actually raise another issue.

In movies, books, TV shows the good guys win. It may be a moral victory or an all out total victory but normally good wins, especailly in childrens games. It is almost the reponsiblity of Media to show the "Moral" correct to be the victors. "Crime doesn't pay" and "Evil is punished", that type of thing. Now In games like heroscape there is a narrative, but the units are "Equal". Good is as likely to win as loose in a given game.

Is there a responsiblity for Game designers to make EVIL weaker, less cool or have their victories seem cheap (Looking at you deathreavers). Should the KoW be better than the blackguarrd? Should the 4th be better than the 10th, so the "good guys" often win? Taking it back to chess, Should we change that white always goes first to Black goes first to give Black the edge for a while (or at least pick to colours that are not racially charged).

MAybe the narative of Grimnak chomping an elf is neutral. But what about the 4th consistantly out preforming the Mohican River tribe. If you are a kid (person?) and always see the natives lose, you start to encode that Natives lose to White people. Maybe even more abstract, Black elves are evil and suck, white ones are good and competitive. White angles (Sentinals) are better than Black ones (Imperium). Scotsmen are not very effective and have sort tempers. All these concepts exist in our game. How often does anyone really discuss this with thier kids? How often do people acutally think about it them selves. I haven't til now.

If anything naratives matter, espcially historic naratives. Maybe it is our jobs as parrents and teachers to teach children and others that the naratives of games are not equal to the naratives of reality, but is definitally something to be mindful of.


wriggz's custom Figures and Terrain

Have a Question? Take it to the Dump.

Want to Learn More? Go to the Library.

Last edited by wriggz; August 12th, 2015 at 03:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old August 12th, 2015, 05:52 PM
IAmBatman's Avatar
IAmBatman IAmBatman is offline
Has Bigger Cockles
 
Join Date: February 15, 2007
Location: USA - AL - Montgomery
Posts: 98,207
Images: 93
IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer IAmBatman is a wielder of the Ban Hammer
Re: Are the 10th Bad Guys?

I don't think post-modern fiction works that way, though. Think about the most popular television shows of the modern era: The Sopranos, Breaking Bad, The Walking Dead, etc. How many of these really have the "good guys" as the protagonists, even? (You could argue for the Walking Dead cuz at least they're not zombies, but some of the humans are real dirt bags).

C3G can be played with official Heroscape, but it's not recommended.


DISCLAIMER: C3G claims no ownership of the characters or artwork used for C3G customs. All rights for the characters belong to their respective publishers/creators. C3G cards are not intended for sale, and C3G does not authorize any party to profit from C3G cards.

Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old August 12th, 2015, 07:36 PM
Owlman's Avatar
Owlman Owlman is offline
 
Join Date: April 12, 2013
Location: USA - FL - Lake Worth
Posts: 344
Owlman knows what's in an order marker Owlman knows what's in an order marker
Re: Are the 10th Bad Guys?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
The other day I noticed German WWII soliders listed on a Model train website. Got me thinking if I would want to promote Nazis in my custom game. Then I thought about the American Civil war figures that are in the mail right now.

You may have noticed I'm Canadian. Our history does not paint the Confederates in a very favourable light. I wouldn't be suprised if, to many Canadains the confederates are a bunch of slave driving racists, only slightly removed from the the previously mentioned Nazis.

Then I got thinking about the 4th and the 10th, and wondering if Americans look down on the 10th as british oppressiors, not that much different than those listed above. Whereas to me the 4th are representitive of the Invaders that attacked Toronto (York) during the War of 1812 piliging the settlement and burning down the Government. To me the 10th represent the military that protected Canada from becoming another territory of the expansionist USA, working with, not against the native population. This doesn't even begin to get into the Mohican River tribe.

I wonder if Italian and Greek members of this community feel the same way about the Roman Legos, Gladiators or Sacred Band.

So are the 10th Bad guys? I suppose it is up to history to judge.
Define "Bad".

As a Christian, there are no "gray" areas to me. There is "White" (God/Jesus). and everything else is "Black" to me. (Sin/Evil/Anything that is not of God or against Him or His laws.) No one can do enough "good" to earn their way to favor with God or humanity, despite what all the super hero movies might lead you to believe.

Ergo, in the end, we're all in the same in the same boat. We're sinking, and without the saving grace of Jesus, we're in serious trouble. So it is best not to judge others, I find, fictional or real.

(Also, those Canadians who do believe the Confederates were all a bunch of slave driving racists, are un-educated. There were many Christians who sided with the Confederate army, (I.e. Stonewall Jackson comes to mind) as they felt the Union was oppressing their freedoms.)

Be polite: Don't tell other people not to put politics or religion in their signature
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Heroscapers > Official Classic HeroScape > HeroScape General Discussion
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
4th>10th Jexik Competitive Armies Discussion 137 April 25th, 2019 07:22 PM
4th vs 10th anagrams_are_just_grams Official Units 13 April 13th, 2011 08:25 PM
4th Mass Vs. 10th Reg Tysac Competitive Armies Discussion 1 May 17th, 2010 02:18 PM
10th Regiment of Foot tigon001 Official Units 63 April 27th, 2008 10:24 PM
YOU GUYS! You guys! you guys you guys... Munchkin Quest! ej Other Games 3 September 2nd, 2007 01:03 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:09 PM.

Heroscape background footer

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.