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Old June 27th, 2015, 10:32 PM
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The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

In regards to the Supreme Court's ruling on homosexuality, I found this today:

Quote:
Did Jesus ever condemn homosexuality? This is a question that has been the little "stinger" that Christian gay activists have been using since the Supreme Court ruling yesterday.

My response would be, "yes, He did."

Apparently many Catholics, and non-Catholic Christians, are not very familiar with Sacred Scripture. In the case of Catholics, both Scripture, and the Catechism. For it doesn't take a heavily intellectual man to sort things out and find the basic fundimental building blocks of love, or to understand sin.

Lets start off with love. As we Catholics know, God Himself is Love. It is said that we were made BY love, WITH love, FOR love. So what does that mean. Well, when God first created man (Gen 1:26-28) He created man out of love. But He didn't just create man simply to be... to exist... no, He called man to love. Thus, he created Eve. So we have God, who is Love, He made man out of love and He created them (man and woman) for love.

At the beginning of time, God set the boundaries of love. So then, what is sin? In the Catechism we are told that sin is, "a thought, utterance, or deed against the eternal law of God." Now we, as Christians, believe that Jesus Christ, is One in Being with The Father, and The Holy Spirit. Therefore, if God Himself is eternal, and His law is eternal, than what was once a sin, will always be a sin. This means that when dealing with homosexuality based off The Bible we cannot simply dismiss all of the references in the Old Testament. Because God Himself is unchanging.

Now its easy enough to find verses in the Old Testament that condemn homosexual actions, such as Liviticus 18:21-22 and 20:13; but the trouble people have is finding references in the New Testament. So, for those of you who are not familiar with these passages you may want to break out your Bible and look them up. Timothy 1:8-10 mentions sodomites as, "contrary to sound doctrine," and Romans 1:24-28 makes it very clear that homosexual actions are evil in the eyes of God.

Many people then ask, "so you're saying gay people are evil? And that they're going to hell?"

No. Thats not what I'm saying. I'm saying the ACT of homosexuality is a grave sin. It is contrary not only to the NATURAL LAW (the way things were meant to work through their immediate physical nature) and DIVINE LAW (the way God made things to be in their "inner" spiritual nature) and is contrary to His eternal law, thus making it a sin.

"But you can't tell people what they can, and cannot do."

Actually you can. Lets take for example, the fact that it is against the law to kill (murder) someone. Why is it illegal? Well, first of all, its wrong. Secondly, if everyone went aroud killing people society wouldn't be stable. Lastly, there is a third party involved that is affected in some negative way. These are the duties of society. So where do they apply to gay "marriage"?

Firstly, we just concluded above, at least somewhat, that homosexuality is a sin. Its wrong. Secondly, it makes society unstable. It effects society... and not in a good way. Society is based on the concept of the familiy. Without it, society falls apart as a whole. Lastly, it affects a third party in a negative way. These people want to raise children, and are seen by others as they openly engage in sinful actions. Their children will be raised being confused or feeling empty because their childhood will be unnatural. Its not normal, and its not healthy for the childs physical or spiritual well being.
To which I responded:


Quote:
And here's the differences. First let me clarify -- I agree homosexual intercourse is a sin. And that's where I stop agreeing with you.

Under our constitution, among other things, we agree to allow people to maintain religious freedom. Therefor, if we deny homosexuals the right to exercise this right, what's to stop people from denying more rights? Nothing, you're paving a road to a dictated society, or a merging of church (not necessarily Catholic, mind you) and state; not a good thing. To deny someone their beliefs because of ours trumps their rights.

Let's go over your comparison to murder -- heard it many times, but there's a fine difference. Let's revisit our constitution, "....life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness...." Murder interferes with someone else's rights. Namely, their right to life. The act homosexual intercourse -- rape aside -- does not infringe on someone else's right. It is two consenting people agreeing to do what they wish to do. Murder is stealing someone else's right to life.

Next your point on family. Yes, society is founded on the family. So let's break this down: the people in question are gay (i.e. attracted to those of the same gender), these people are not attracted to people of the opposite sex, they are incapable of truly loving someone of the opposite sex -- conclusion? Since they are incapable of truly loving someone of the opposite sex, any form of intercourse with a woman would be a sinful act. Thus, in a society where gay marriage is illegal, they would turn out single (e.g. not raising a family). The effect is the same: no sexual attractions = no family. They want to raise their own kids according to their religious beliefs? Well what's the difference from Muslims, Buddhist, Satanist .ect doing that? If we gave everyone a problem about raising their kids, for better or for worse, the world would be much different -- I reckon for worse.

Lastly is a choice given by God himself -- free will. God has the power to end homosexuality with a waive of His hand, a drop of His blood, the bend of an eye-lash. Yet he doesn't, why? Because He gave humanity free will, to choose what they wish to do. If God is willing to give this choice, who are we to take it away? Will we outlaw pre-martial sex? Will we outlaw religions that are not Catholic? Will we outlaw stray thoughts? Will we outlaw intoxication? Where do we draw a line? I say the line is drawn only when someone's fee will is hindered.

In conclusion, homosexual acts are wrong. But the Supreme's Court decision is both upholding of the constitution, and more importantly, the are NOT playing God. They are not taking away the freewill that God bestowed upon man; something that only God has the right to take away.
First, everyone understand -- I don't hate homosexuals. As a matter of fact, one of my best friends is homosexual, and he's one of the best people I know, hands down.

I think acts of homosexuality are a sin. Why? Because my religion says so, and since I believe my religion is guided by God, I must conclude that God also says homosexuality is a sin. That's all.

I strongly support the Supreme Court's ruling; they're upholding our constitution, supporting both civil rights and religious freedom. No matter what my beliefs on homosexuality may be (or anything else), it is not for me (or anyone else) to impose their beliefs on someone else.

Taken from a strictly religious point of view -- God has given you free will, as long as it doesn't cause anyone direct harm, it's not for anyone to interfere.

Taken from a non-religious point of view -- there's nothing wrong with it at all.

So in light of either point of view, homosexuality should be permitted, hands down, no argument about it.

So anyways, I just felt like sharing my view, because so many people whom I know personally disagree with me strongly, yet I feel like my line of reasoning is just so logical that one cannot deny recognizing it's truth. Anyway, maybe that's just my biased point of view.

Feel free to lemme know what ya'll think.

~JS
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  #2  
Old June 28th, 2015, 12:50 AM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

I can't speak with much authority about Catholic doctrine, JS. I was raised a Catholic, but no longer identify as such.

A plain reading of the Bible suggests that God does concern himself with the goings on in the bedroom of two consenting homosexual individuals and would consider it a sin. (You state that you agree that God considers it a sin). The author of the original message could have gotten to Jesus believing such in a more direct route. The Sermon on the Mount. (Matthew 5, IIRC, but I'm starting to get rusty on my from-memory Bible citations). Pick your favorite translation, but shortly after the Beatitudes, they'll all include Jesus saying he isn't there to abolish the Law (Old Testament law), but is there to uphold it and that "until heaven and earth pass" no detail of the Law will pass; it will all be fulfilled. Yep, Jesus believed the law in Leviticus (and elsewhere in the OT) was right and just.

But the Bible is the big book of multiple choice. One can use it to argue otherwise. That the God of the Bible was apparently OK with slavery and gave laws on how to go about doing it is enough to make it dead to me as a source of authority on morality. I'm very glad indeed, Joseph, that you too are able to discard much of the cruft in the Bible in seeking out what you think is right and wrong.

Me? Obviously, I'm thrilled with the ruling--I've had the red equals sign as my signature for a couple of years now (I don't recall ever having another signature, but maybe I did) and changed it to the rainbow equals signs (in celebration) yesterday.

There is nothing more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. --MLK

Last edited by Xorlof; June 28th, 2015 at 01:05 AM.
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  #3  
Old June 28th, 2015, 10:02 AM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

Glad we're pretty much on the same page.

My main point of my argument is this (seeing as I may have been a little unclear): if there is a God, he has given free will to humanity, and thus people should be entitled to follow that how they see fit. And entitled to equal rights in that pursuit (of happiness).

If you're someone who sees it from a strictly non-religious point of view: it's fine in any light.

Since God will give us a choice on matters (from my view) we can't take that away due to assumptions that it *could* be wrong, or because we think we know what's best for society. Because with that in mind, we would be taking away their rights to make decisions as human being, or so I see it.

I wasn't aware of the red equals sign, otherwise I would have put it in my sig. Gonna add the rainbow when I get on a computer.

Anyway, Friday was a great day in the history of the US.

~JS
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Old June 28th, 2015, 10:47 AM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

Yes. I agree with you in that the act of gay marriage is a sin, but understand that people who do are not necessarily evil. God calls us to love the person but hate the deed meaning to always love the person no matter if he/she has killed 6 people, but hate what he/she did. I also agree that other religions will see this subject differently and respect that.

But I don't think the law should be this way because no matter how devoted to freedom this country was it was a country base on god and being christen I believe that god must come before all else especially because the god of the bible (if real (to those who disbelieve)) always has your best interests in mind.

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." - John 14:6

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Old June 28th, 2015, 11:21 AM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

First off -- yeah, no hate on ny part.

And yes, it was originally founded off of God. But God Himself has given us free will. So if He is willing to let people decide how they wish to live their lives, why should us as mere human beings try and interfere with a right that God Himself will not interfere with? And since there are so many different religions throughout the USA alone, who's to say that our God is the correct God? Sure, you and I may believe that, but other people disagree, and we shouldn't trump their rights simply because we have a different understanding of what we believe God to be like, or not to be like.

~JS
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Old June 28th, 2015, 12:14 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

I hope this doesn't come across giving the wrong impression. (ie, I'm not upset or anything with anyone who has posted in this thread.)

With all of the people coming out of the woodwork in this country claiming that things are a sin, or that God will punish the gays or the people who made this decision, my question to them is: How do you know what God wants? Unless he has spoken to you directly, you don't. And, don't go quoting the Bible to support your views. The Bible isn't God's word...the Bible is man interpreting God's word. And, since men (and women) aren't perfect, then neither is the Bible. Are there lessons to be learned from the Bible? Of course. Is there wisdom there to be applied to your daily life? Absolutely. But, understanding of your fellow humans, and tolerance and respect for their views and the way they choose to live their lives, that should be the Christian way.

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Old June 28th, 2015, 01:33 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

I think people tend to forget that the Bible has not been one unaltered book since the beginning. The simple differences between the Catholic and Protestant Bibles alone should be evidence of that. It has also been influenced both unintentionally (translator bias) and intentionally (cultural or leadership pressures). Due to this and the vague and easily debated mentions in the New Testament of homosexual relations, I have come to view homosexual marriage as something that is not for people to control. In fact, for the past few years, I have viewed the Bible as more of a guideline for how one should model their life, rather than a hard and fast set of rules to be followed without question.

On a slightly off topic note, I thought it was interesting that in 1 Timothy 1:8-10 (a passage used by some to argue against homosexuality), it specifically mentions slave trading as a sin.
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Old June 28th, 2015, 01:44 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

I try to avoid these threads, but I think I need to step in and defend my favorite book.

First of all, any Christians that quote the Torah or the Old Testament claiming that homosexuality is a sin, Iíd like to ask if you follow the 612 other commandments laid out for you. Do you celebrate Passover? Have a tattoo? Eat meat with dairy? Pray after the meal? Ever told a lie?

Guess whatÖyouíre a sinner.

Iím pretty sure thereís no passage in the Bible that letís you pick and choose what commandments you can ignore, and I donít remember one sin being an instant ticket to hell.

I donít recall Jesus condemning anyone. He even forgave them as he was being crucified.

If you claim to be a Christian, Jesus himself explained that the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the spirit.

He also gives a new commandment to all of his followers. Love one another, as I have loved you. I suggest you do it.

We are all sinners. Look down at the ground, beat your chest and ask God to have mercy on you.

He will.

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Old June 28th, 2015, 01:50 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

First, I totally agree with hate the sin, love the sinner (no matter what the sin). This is stated throughout the Bible. Judgment is for God alone, not us.

Second, it is clear that the Bible states that homosexual relations are sinful acts (both in the old and new testaments).

Third, I completely disagree with the statement that the Bible isn't God's word. If you want to discuss the accuracy of one translation or another, fine, but the original text was written by God through the Spirit working in select men. As soon as we go down the road that the Bible is fallible man's word and not God's infallible truth, then we start picking and choosing what we want to believe that best fits what we want to do. With no absolute truth, man will change what is right and wrong to fit his goals. A look at man's brutal treatment of other men through history shows what that gets us. And yes I know a lot of that brutality was done by men claiming to be doing God's work, but obviously it was their own work which they were trying to justify by perverting God's word.

Again, I say hate the sin, love the sinner.
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Old June 28th, 2015, 03:40 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

The United States is (intended) to be heavily based off of belief. If at some point in time enough* citizens would believe that homosexual marriage is okay and not wrong, then it could be written into law.

Sin has nothing to do with our country's law. Just my thoughts.

This isnt in reply to the thread, just my thoughts on the matter.

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Old June 28th, 2015, 04:46 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Sweeney View Post
First off -- yeah, no hate on ny part.

And yes, it was originally founded off of God. But God Himself has given us free will. So if He is willing to let people decide how they wish to live their lives, why should us as mere human beings try and interfere with a right that God Himself will not interfere with? And since there are so many different religions throughout the USA alone, who's to say that our God is the correct God? Sure, you and I may believe that, but other people disagree, and we shouldn't trump their rights simply because we have a different understanding of what we believe God to be like, or not to be like.

~JS
As I said I respect other people and there religions . The only thing I was expressing disappointment about was that our country has seemingly forgotten the god and the founding principles it was based on and I find that saddening. I completely understand that other people have different ideas and I said that in my first post I simply wish this country would make up it's mind as to what this country is founded on. To answer your question though, I will not enforce my ideas on others merely express them but even though god gave us free will he still gave us rules to abide by and while I do not expect everyone to agree with the rules the bible says to follow those who do must do so because if they did not need to then people could do anything without consequence. Certainly it is impossible to follow every single rule but this one (for those who believe it to be a rule) is a pretty easy one to follow.

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." - John 14:6

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Old June 28th, 2015, 06:20 PM
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Re: The Great Controversy -- or Is It Really?

Will get back to you when I get the chance, Marrowick.

@flameslayer93

In a country where we assure religious freedom, that's right on point.

~JS
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