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  #85  
Old January 30th, 2008, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Metaknight
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Originally Posted by Squitter The Spider
The humans could of been eaten by the dinosaurs so there were no remains.
Well, matter can't be destroyed so we'd have to find it. Even if their bones came out of the dino's poo... eww...
Tell that to the high energy physicists. The fact is that Matter can be destroyed by colliding two particles together at staggering speeds. The collision produces matter in smaller quantities (quarks) who's total mass does not add up to the father particle's mass, and light energy. This can only be done on a small scale, mind you.

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Did you lose your saving throw vs. Fabulous?
B.U.D.
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  #86  
Old January 30th, 2008, 09:22 PM
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DarkDino Woo who?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nukatha
^DarkDino, When you consider how people have been able to find ways to kill every animal out there, including whales, sharks, bears, and elephants without the use of gunpowder, the idea of people killing dinos seems a bit more likely. The idea of surviving with them around also seems more likely. Look at the logic: If you were part of a pack of velociraptors, would you go for the humans that are about your size, so they won't feed you much, and are skilled with spears and bows that can be used strategically against you, or would you go for a bigger, more filling meal that may last a few days such as a T-Rex or apatosaur? Heck, wolf packs can take down buffalo even though they are bigger, so why couldn't the dinos? Even if we didn't hunt them, the animals only kill what they need to survive. If say 8 of them they would attack a small settlement, at most you'd have 4 or so dead people, maybe more if they intervened.



And before you go claiming that evolution and creation can coexist, read this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nukatha
4) Can anyone explain why God couldn't have used evolution to create the world?

Evolution is based on an extended 'survival of the fittest (or smartest...)'. Those that live get to reproduce, and those that die, don't. According to the account of the first sin in the Bible death was the product of sin and affected all the creatures on the planet. If someone believes that evolution-creation is what caused all the species to come into being, you believe that there was death before the first sin, meaning that death was not a product of sin. If death therefore was natural, then Jesus didn't truly save anyone from death, making the whole point of Christianity moot.

Meaning, that to believe that evolution before the first sin was created by God completely defeats the purpose of Christianity. The two cannot coexist. After the first sin, taking into account the records of geneology, and the years given throughout the old testament, we find that there was just more than 6,000 years since then. Based on current evolutionary claims, this time is much to little to find a major change in a species, or to cause a split between species. If evolution was created by God, there wouldn't even have been enough time to verify that claim as no major changes have occured between species that sets it apart from its 'parent' species.
Yes but have we ever fought (also we'd be in very, very early stages of humanity, like use a rock to crack an egg early) a species that has predators specifically designed to kill dinosaurs at least as big as us? How do you propose with a rock to kill a stampeding herd of Apatosaurus? How with a rock do you think we could kill a pack of Deinchyous(8 foot tall velociraptors), or even Velociraptors(only about 2 feet tall)? The only mammals around were no bigger than opposums. Besides evolution doesn't necessarily mean that it's survival of the fittest. I believe that god created life. And in one of the "days" mentioned in the bible, a day for God would be something like 100 million years for us.....
I believe that evolution is a process set into roll by God where creatures are able to adapt to their enviroments based on specific needs of the creature. And a Velociraptor eating a Pachycephalosaurus, is not a sin. Just like a fox eating a mouse today is not a sin. And if dinosaurs ate all the humans and left no bones, why are we around today? And matter can never be destroyed or created by anything man has or knows today. Two particles colliding at any speed would just cause the energy to get transfered into the enviroment around it. Like I-max said you can't force science to fit religion, facts are facts, and the whole bible is based on figurative language, meaning not everything (in fact most things) are not literal in the Bible.

Sorry for the long ranting post, I felt I needed to be involved into this one
as I like the subject of dinosaurs.

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  #87  
Old January 30th, 2008, 09:29 PM
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AgentX-127 Woo who?
Quote:
Originally Posted by InfinityMax
Dude! I know you didn't just invoke Godwin's Law in a debate about dinosaurs!
Oh, I was just feeling like a little trickster!
Hee hee hee!


Oh, just to get back on topic, I have uncovered startling evidence of...
well, just see for yourself:

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  #88  
Old January 30th, 2008, 10:23 PM
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DarkDino Woo who?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AgentX-127
Quote:
Originally Posted by InfinityMax
Dude! I know you didn't just invoke Godwin's Law in a debate about dinosaurs!
Oh, I was just feeling like a little trickster!
Hee hee hee!


Oh, just to get back on topic, I have uncovered startling evidence of...
well, just see for yourself:


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  #89  
Old January 31st, 2008, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LilNewbie

Same could be said of the Survival of the Fittest concept (which I think is valid up to a point). In fact, any view/belief taken to an extreme is dangerous. That's how fanatics are born.

Newb.
The notion of taking Survival of the Fittest to an extreme is like the notion of taking Newton's Second Law (force equals mass times acceleration) to an extreme. Anyone who wants to use Force Equals Mass Times Acceleration as the basis of a philosophy is clearly a lunatic.

Like Newton's Second Law, applied knowledge of Survival of the Fittest can produce profound negative consequences. But to decry the malicious application of accurate knowledge is very different from decrying the knowledge itself. The first is moral, the second is preposterous.

A bullet is able to kill someone in part because of Newton's Second Law. That's no reason to mount a propaganda campaign against the teaching of Newton's ideas.
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  #90  
Old January 31st, 2008, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaques
Quote:
Originally Posted by LilNewbie

Same could be said of the Survival of the Fittest concept (which I think is valid up to a point). In fact, any view/belief taken to an extreme is dangerous. That's how fanatics are born.

Newb.
The notion of taking Survival of the Fittest to an extreme is like the notion of taking Newton's Second Law (force equals mass times acceleration) to an extreme. Anyone who wants to use Force Equals Mass Times Acceleration as the basis of a philosophy is clearly a lunatic.

Like Newton's Second Law, applied knowledge of Survival of the Fittest can produce profound negative consequences. But to decry the malicious application of accurate knowledge is very different from decrying the knowledge itself. The first is moral, the second is preposterous.

A bullet is able to kill someone in part because of Newton's Second Law. That's no reason to mount a propaganda campaign against the teaching of Newton's ideas.
Except Newton's laws are dealing with immutable concepts that we can't change but SotF is dealing with how animals deal with other animals and is not always followed 100%. If so, we would not stop and help less fortunate people and other creatures. It would almost seem that Humans screwed up the SotF concept because we have added conscious and compassion to the mix.

Trying to compare Newton's laws to SotF is interesting but I don't think it works. One is dealing with the physical world with interactions between matter/energy but SotF is dealing with relationships between creatures.

But that is not the point of this thread and I didn't mean to derail IMax's thread.

Newb.
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  #91  
Old January 31st, 2008, 12:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LilNewbie
Except Newton's laws are dealing with immutable concepts that we can't change but SotF is dealing with how animals deal with other animals and is not always followed 100%. If so, we would not stop and help less fortunate people and other creatures. It would almost seem that Humans screwed up the SotF concept because we have added conscious and compassion to the mix.

Trying to compare Newton's laws to SotF is interesting but I don't think it works. One is dealing with the physical world with interactions between matter/energy but SotF is dealing with relationships between creatures.

But that is not the point of this thread and I didn't mean to derail IMax's thread.

Newb.
But that is the point of this thread. Evolution and its mechanisms are proven, demonstrated scientific concepts.
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  #92  
Old January 31st, 2008, 12:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaques
Quote:
Originally Posted by LilNewbie
Except Newton's laws are dealing with immutable concepts that we can't change but SotF is dealing with how animals deal with other animals and is not always followed 100%. If so, we would not stop and help less fortunate people and other creatures. It would almost seem that Humans screwed up the SotF concept because we have added conscious and compassion to the mix.

Trying to compare Newton's laws to SotF is interesting but I don't think it works. One is dealing with the physical world with interactions between matter/energy but SotF is dealing with relationships between creatures.

But that is not the point of this thread and I didn't mean to derail IMax's thread.

Newb.
But that is the point of this thread. Evolution and its mechanisms are proven, demonstrated scientific concepts.
I was actually answering the Nazi thing and how they took concepts and philosophies and took them to the extreme. Look where that got us.

And the main point of this thread was asking the question about dinosaurs and humans being alive at the same time on the earth. Evolution just popped in to say hi.

Newb.
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  #93  
Old January 31st, 2008, 12:58 AM
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Oops clicked "submit" when I was trying to scroll.

To continue, "survival of the fittest" has nothing to do with whether animals help one another or not. It has to do with whether the heritable characteristics of the animals give them an advantage over other animals.

Our ability to be compassionate toward and cooperative with our fellow man, combined with our consciousness, gives us an overwhelming advantage against just about every other form of life on the planet. That's why there are six billion of us now when there were only millions of us a relatively short time ago.

And Newton's laws are no more immutable than Darwin's ideas. Einstein came along and showed that Newton's laws had to be revised for certain cases.

The point is, man's ability to misuse science is not an argument against science. It's an argument against giving men too much political power.
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  #94  
Old January 31st, 2008, 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by LilNewbie

I was actually answering the Nazi thing and how they took concepts and philosophies and took them to the extreme. Look where that got us.
Taking concepts and philosophies to the extreme got the Nazis precisely nowhere. Convincing people to hate and fear each other is what got the Nazis into power.

The danger is never in the investigation of an idea, but in subverting ideas to one's lust for power.
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  #95  
Old January 31st, 2008, 01:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaques
Oops clicked "submit" when I was trying to scroll.

To continue, "survival of the fittest" has nothing to do with whether animals help one another or not. It has to do with whether the heritable characteristics of the animals give them an advantage over other animals.

Our ability to be compassionate toward and cooperative with our fellow man, combined with our consciousness, gives us an overwhelming advantage against just about every other form of life on the planet. That's why there are six billion of us now when there were only millions of us a relatively short time ago.

And Newton's laws are no more immutable than Darwin's ideas. Einstein came along and showed that Newton's laws had to be revised for certain cases.

The point is, man's ability to misuse science is not an argument against science. It's an argument against giving men too much political power.
Yep...I agree and never once did I make an argument against science just the misapplication of science/knowledge/belief. And my point with rendering aid/compassion was just an example of misapplying SotF.

Newb.
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  #96  
Old January 31st, 2008, 01:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaques
Quote:
Originally Posted by LilNewbie

I was actually answering the Nazi thing and how they took concepts and philosophies and took them to the extreme. Look where that got us.
Taking concepts and philosophies to the extreme got the Nazis precisely nowhere. Convincing people to hate and fear each other is what got the Nazis into power.

The danger is never in the investigation of an idea, but in subverting ideas to one's lust for power.
I would beg to differ that it "got them nowhere." Concentration camps and plunging the world into several long years of war wasn't just some guys in the back room saying "hey, we're bored...let's take over the world." They believed in something to get them where they where going. Of course, it's not the only thing that motivated them.

But this is not the thread for this conversation.

Newb.
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