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  #37  
Old November 30th, 2007, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billtog
I guess I'm a little confused here... is there a difference between free health care and socialized health care?
Well, technically there is no such thing as free health care. Somebody always has to pay, even if it isn't you. TANSTAAFL. There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. (I think this phrase was coined by Robert Heinlein. Not sure though.) If you are in a socialized health care system, or one run by the government, the taxpayers pay for medical care. The more people who are in the system, the greater taxes must be. If you are insured, the insurance company pays for your medical care, and then you pay for it through greater premiums or they make up for it by charging other people greater premiums. Or something. So really, you're paying for it any way you look at it.

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Originally Posted by Billtog
You can call me crazy all you want, but I think the capitalist system in America needs an overhaul. It sounds completely ludicrous at first (and I'm still having trouble with it), but I think that salary shouldn't be based on how much money you bring in, but how important the job is. Teachers, doctors, etc. get paid the most. Always. Next we have jobs like custodians, garbage men, and police officers. Politicians and artists fall somewhere in the middle, and professional athletes get knocked down quite a few pegs. Then, after that we make the requirements for teaching and doctoring higher so that we don't have a bunch of hacks that just want to make money. I'm sure that some of you will vehemently disagree with me, and that's fine.
I agree, Billtog, the capitalist system here in the U.S. isn't perfect, and not even perfectly capitalist, but it is better than the alternative. I mean, would you rather live in communist Russia or China, Islamic ruled (random middle eastern country), or the good old U.S. of A?

In an ideal world, people would be charged with medical care according to their ability to pay, so someone earning very little money could still get good medical care, and the medical providers would make up for this by charging more to those who are able to pay more. This would have to be done voluntarily by doctors, which would never happen under the current system because hospitals are run as ways to make money, and not as ways to help people, which was their original intent. However, a lot would have to change to make this happen, which includes people's attitudes towards life and money. You can't force changes like this with legislation, and it won't happen overnight. I know a lot of people probably won't agree, but I think that this can only happen in a dominantly Christian culture. For a rational thinking athiest, there is no productive purpose in helping other people, or no overriding reason to go out of your way to do so. One athiest may find utility in helping people, but another may not, and there is no overarching moral code that the first one can point to to show that helping people is better than not. There can be no absolute right or wrong in an athiest system. As a Christian, if I find out another Christian is, say, stealing or something that is wrong according to the Christian moral code found in the Bible, I can point to that and say something along the lines of "Whoa, dude, what you are doing is wrong." They would have to accept this because they also claim to hold to the same moral code. If a non-Christian steals, it is still wrong, they just don't have to accept my word for it. Eh, I'm still working out the details.

Now look what you've done. You've sucked me into a philisophical and economic discussion and caused my longest post ever. You should be ashamed of yourself.

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  #38  
Old December 2nd, 2007, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marro_of_Doom
Well, technically there is no such thing as free health care. Somebody always has to pay, even if it isn't you. TANSTAAFL. There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. (I think this phrase was coined by Robert Heinlein. Not sure though.) If you are in a socialized health care system, or one run by the government, the taxpayers pay for medical care. The more people who are in the system, the greater taxes must be. If you are insured, the insurance company pays for your medical care, and then you pay for it through greater premiums or they make up for it by charging other people greater premiums. Or something. So really, you're paying for it any way you look at it.g out the details.
I agree with this MoD. The term "free" is very deceiving. IT IS NOT FREE!!!

We all probably have health insurance, and doctor bill nightmare stories. That is why when politicians talk about universal health care or government health care as solutions many of us get excited about stopping the madness. The truth is, IMO, that most politicians aren't addressing the REAL problem and that isn't lack of coverage, it's RISING COSTS!
The fix will be complicated, but tort reform and more competition among Health Care providers would help.
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  #39  
Old December 2nd, 2007, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LilMoochie
Hillary can't win- she's too polarizing
Obama is too inexperienced
John Edwards is a trial lawyer
Guliani is too liberal (for GOP base)
Romney is too... Romney
McCain is too old

This is a great list of Vice-Presidential candidates. Now show me the list for president.
To quote Jim Hightower, if God had intended for us to vote, He would have given us candidates.
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  #40  
Old December 2nd, 2007, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Wind Lane
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I want a president who will decrease government's involvement in my life. Anyone who still believes that politicians will actually use the money they collect for what they say is on something.

You let people spend their own money how they choose and people will reap their own reward instead of being babysat by Big Brother.
Congratulations! You are taking the first steps towards becoming a Conservative. Welcome to the dark side, we have cookies.
Hate to break it to you, but I've been a conservative since junior high. Wouldn't it be nice if those elected officials who also claim to be so acted like it?
Now that I agree with :P
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  #41  
Old December 5th, 2007, 04:09 PM
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This topic was about Ron Paul, wasn't it?

Without getting into it too deeply, Paul is the only Republican I would even consider casting my vote for in the general election. (...and then it would only be if he was up against Clinton.)

That being said, I fully intend to support the Democrat who wins the primary.
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  #42  
Old December 5th, 2007, 06:01 PM
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I would like to see Huckabee win. But, I don't think he'll end up getting the nomination.

The main reason I support Huckabee is his open support and knowledge of the Fair Tax (HR 25, S 1025).

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  #43  
Old December 5th, 2007, 07:36 PM
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Ron Paul is a big proponent of FairTax, also. I very much appreciate what they are trying to do, but FairTax ain't gonna happen. It's the surest way to a dystopian future with evil corporations being corporationy in their corporation buildings.

#1) Congress loves the ability to use tax policy to manage public policy. You think Denny's *wants* to hire the mentally retarded and the ps.ychologically ill?

#2) Certain taxes (e.g. estate taxes) are necessary to maintain the middle class and assist the redistribution of weath from the obscenely rich. As if being born a Kennedy or Bush wasn't lucky enough...

#3) The environmental part of me appreciates the "consumption tax" portion of it but the incentives go the wrong way. More expensive "environmentally friendly" items would become considerably more expensive than cheaper, "rape-the-earth" brands.

#4) It doesn't seem like it's a Fair Tax to me. I'll pay the same for my non-discretionary purchases (food, gas, transportation) as Paul Allen pays. Sure, it's nice that I can choose how much tax I pay by picking a cheaper car with fewer options. I still need a car, though. It's gonna take him a lot longer to spend his $20 billion bank account than I'll take with my $20. When the Commies invade he's got a lot more to lose. Shouldn't he buy more bullets for the military than me?

#5) Ever since McCulloch vs. Maryland municipalities have relied on tax-free municipal bonds to finance public works. Under a flat tax all the advantages of municipal bonds would be negated. Talk about a bridge to municipal browntown.

I hate taxes as much as the next poster, but I think we can't completely throw away our current tax policies.


BUT!... If it passes I suppose the out-of-work tax lawyers can work at Dennys...

Last edited by LilMoochie : five minutes ago.
Reason: You think it's mindless drivel now? You should have seen it before.
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  #44  
Old December 5th, 2007, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hakysak
I wish Jonathan Sharkey was still running for President.

His campaign was based on the public impaling of murderers, terrorists, and rapist. He was campaigning for the Pagan Party.

He had my vote.
Until you actually witness the first one and realize it isn't really that cool.
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  #45  
Old December 5th, 2007, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LilMoochie

#1) Congress loves the ability to use tax policy to manage public policy. You think Denny's *wants* to hire the mentally retarded and the ps.ychologically ill?

#2) Certain taxes (e.g. estate taxes) are necessary to maintain the middle class and assist the redistribution of weath from the obscenely rich. As if being born a Kennedy or Bush wasn't lucky enough...

#3) The environmental part of me appreciates the "consumption tax" portion of it but the incentives go the wrong way. More expensive "environmentally friendly" items would become considerably more expensive than cheaper, "rape-the-earth" brands.

#4) It doesn't seem like it's a Fair Tax to me. I'll pay the same for my non-discretionary purchases (food, gas, transportation) as Paul Allen pays. Sure, it's nice that I can choose how much tax I pay by picking a cheaper car with fewer options. I still need a car, though. It's gonna take him a lot longer to spend his $20 billion bank account than I'll take with my $20. When the Commies invade he's got a lot more to lose. Shouldn't he buy more bullets for the military than me?

#5) Ever since McCulloch vs. Maryland municipalities have relied on tax-free municipal bonds to finance public works. Under a flat tax all the advantages of municipal bonds would be negated. Talk about a bridge to municipal browntown.

I hate taxes as much as the next poster, but I think we can't completely throw away our current tax policies.
1) True, however, should congress have that power? I don't feel they should.

2) I totally disagree. Estate taxes are ridiculous. There is no reason that a person's wealth, already taxed during his/her life, should be taxed again. Period. But again, that's just me.

3) Not any more expensive than they already are. The price you pay at the cash register for an item will be actually *less* than what you pay now. The average item already carries an embedded 24-30% upcharge to pay for the company's income taxes, because it no longer carries an income tax burden. That embedded tax is replaced with another embedded tax: the fair tax, which is 23%. Not to mention that *every* family receives a check at the beginning of the month to cover the Fair Tax on all necessities. The choice you make when purchasing an item with its impact on the enviroment, until mandated by law, is a personal choice.

4) But, chances are, if he has 20 billion bank account versus your 20 dollars, he's going to be spending tons more than 20 dollars, thus leaving him contributing a lot more to the pot than you do. I think that's fair.

5) The only reason Municipal bonds are popular is because of the exemption (obviously). They offer very small returns for investors. I think brighter ecomomic spending choices on the part of the municipality, and smaller municipal governments in general, would reduce a municipality's reliance on bonds as a sorce of money for public works.

And Ron Paul doesn't advocate the fair tax, he's actually sort of "meh" on it, saying that if elected, he would sort of go with the flow. He is a proponent of lower taxes, though.

And, you're probably right, it will be a long time before the act would be passed. But, once it's in the lime light, and more people are paying attention to it, it will become a strong running issue during Congressional elections.

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  #46  
Old December 6th, 2007, 03:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LilMoochie
#3) The environmental part of me appreciates the "consumption tax" portion of it but the incentives go the wrong way. More expensive "environmentally friendly" items would become considerably more expensive than cheaper, "rape-the-earth" brands.
I don't get why a consumption tax would make a "environmentally friendly" item any more expensive than a "rape the earth" brand. If it is truly environmentally friendly it will be more durable, reusable, and recyclable. If it truly rapes the earth, if will be disposable and less durable. The initial sticker price of the former may be higher, but the latter will need to be purchased again and again. Or is the "environmentally friendly" just a selling point?
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  #47  
Old December 6th, 2007, 03:24 AM
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http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0

Can O' Worms. Ron Paul is interviewed in this video as well.

Cheers to all of you!

Cheers to your favorite crew!
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  #48  
Old December 6th, 2007, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justjohn
1) True, however, should congress have that power? I don't feel they should.
THis may be where we just have to disagree. I absolutely think that Congress should try to influence public policy by providing taxation/market-driven incentives to get people and corporations to "do the right thing." Much better than blanket-legislation banning SUVs and cigarettes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justjohn
2) I totally disagree. Estate taxes are ridiculous. There is no reason that a person's wealth, already taxed during his/her life, should be taxed again.
Again, I agree with you in sentiment, but in practice there has to be some check on the plutocracy. Only the obscenely wealthy (estates > 2 million) pay estate taxes, and those who pay it can't complain. (They're dead) I recognize the plight of the family farm, but we can figure that out another way. It's not fair that they have to pay taxes on money that has already been taxed, but in the grand scheme of things there are much larger injustices.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justjohn
4) But, chances are, if he has 20 billion bank account versus your 20 dollars, he's going to be spending tons more than 20 dollars, thus leaving him contributing a lot more to the pot than you do. I think that's fair.
You're absolutely right that his "discretionary" income will far outstrip mine. But he's also going to be spending it elsewhere. He'll buy his yacht from the Bahamas, his furnishings from Italy... It was the tax on his milk, bananas, gasoline and TP that I'm protesting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justjohn
5) I think brighter ecomomic spending choices on the part of the municipality, and smaller municipal governments in general...
Is there anyone here who feels like their municipal governments are not run by absolute dopes? I heartily agree that they should be smaller and smarter, but that's a discussion for another thread. The bridges, roads, libraries, and schools still need to get built and the money has to come from somewhere. Parking tickets anyone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent Minivann
I don't get why a consumption tax would make a "environmentally friendly" item any more expensive than a "rape the earth" brand.
I was speaking strictly based on the (usually correct) assumption that environmentally friendly products cost more. At a 30% tax rate (state + federal) things will cost an extra $0.30 for every dollar increase. That's all I meant by saying the incentives go the wrong way. When certain "friendly" products cost much more, they become prohibitively expensive (admittedly not always from a tax perspective)

It's very strange for me to be on this side of the debate. In my family gatherings I'm the stoic conservative and here I feel like a bleeding-heart liberal. I'm in crisis!

Last edited by LilMoochie : five minutes ago.
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