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  #10561  
Old August 3rd, 2017, 12:22 AM
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Re: Question Dump: Post Your Questions Here.

I can see why this might seem muddy, but I think we're making it more complicated than it needs to be...it seems pretty clear to me that WTF would not be active if you were attempting to disengage. You've declared that figure to disengage and that in and of itself is declaring movement during the move phase imo. Thematically, the 4th mass is essentially in Hand-to-hand combat with his opponent, turns his back, and tries to run away. While his compatriots may be a little more bold and stand their ground, as part of their squad he has moved [been activated to move] even though he never got away from his opponent.
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  #10562  
Old August 3rd, 2017, 09:48 AM
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Re: Question Dump: Post Your Questions Here.

edit: double post

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  #10563  
Old August 3rd, 2017, 09:49 AM
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Re: Question Dump: Post Your Questions Here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rednax View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by R˙chean View Post
I think it is a bit slippery to look at it that way. That leads to, do i got 4 shots or 3?

If none of the 4th mass move, you get up to 4 WTF shots. If one dies from leaving engagement, the shot should also be lost, in which case he ends up being a figure you "activated" during your move phase. But you didn't move anybody during your move phase, so you still get 4 shots.

I'd say no on the WTF if I was asked to rule on it at a tournament.
That's true. Let's say you had eight 4th Mass and they're all engaged. If your first 4th Mass dies from a leaving engagement attack and that doesn't count as a move, then in theory you could keep disengaging with 4th Mass until you had four that survived.
Absolutely untrue. You only get to ACTIVATE four figures. A figure can activate without moving. Attempting to disengage is an activation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
I can see why this might seem muddy, but I think we're making it more complicated than it needs to be...it seems pretty clear to me
This kind of rhetoric is unhelpful. Both sides of the debate think "it seems pretty clear".

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  #10564  
Old August 3rd, 2017, 12:20 PM
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Re: Question Dump: Post Your Questions Here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by happyjosiah View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rednax View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by R˙chean View Post
I think it is a bit slippery to look at it that way. That leads to, do i got 4 shots or 3?

If none of the 4th mass move, you get up to 4 WTF shots. If one dies from leaving engagement, the shot should also be lost, in which case he ends up being a figure you "activated" during your move phase. But you didn't move anybody during your move phase, so you still get 4 shots.

I'd say no on the WTF if I was asked to rule on it at a tournament.
That's true. Let's say you had eight 4th Mass and they're all engaged. If your first 4th Mass dies from a leaving engagement attack and that doesn't count as a move, then in theory you could keep disengaging with 4th Mass until you had four that survived.
Absolutely untrue. You only get to ACTIVATE four figures. A figure can activate without moving. Attempting to disengage is an activation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
I can see why this might seem muddy, but I think we're making it more complicated than it needs to be...it seems pretty clear to me
This kind of rhetoric is unhelpful. Both sides of the debate think "it seems pretty clear".
Well, I don't see how. I really don't understand how this kind of question came up! This is ridiculous!

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  #10565  
Old August 3rd, 2017, 12:52 PM
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Re: Question Dump: Post Your Questions Here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by happyjosiah View Post
Attempting to disengage is an activation.
Yes, but also a form of movement because the attempt is to move, therefore negating potential WTF.
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  #10566  
Old August 3rd, 2017, 03:34 PM
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Re: Question Dump: Post Your Questions Here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by happyjosiah View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rednax View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by R˙chean View Post
I think it is a bit slippery to look at it that way. That leads to, do i got 4 shots or 3?

If none of the 4th mass move, you get up to 4 WTF shots. If one dies from leaving engagement, the shot should also be lost, in which case he ends up being a figure you "activated" during your move phase. But you didn't move anybody during your move phase, so you still get 4 shots.

I'd say no on the WTF if I was asked to rule on it at a tournament.
That's true. Let's say you had eight 4th Mass and they're all engaged. If your first 4th Mass dies from a leaving engagement attack and that doesn't count as a move, then in theory you could keep disengaging with 4th Mass until you had four that survived.
Absolutely untrue. You only get to ACTIVATE four figures. A figure can activate without moving. Attempting to disengage is an activation.
No, I agree! I was trying to give an example of how messy things could get if disengage attempts didn't count as an activation. Then you would run into terrible situations like that where someone could keep trying to disengage until they had four successful ones!
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  #10567  
Old August 3rd, 2017, 03:52 PM
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Re: Question Dump: Post Your Questions Here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by happyjosiah View Post
Attempting to disengage is an activation.
Yes, but also a form of movement because the attempt is to move, therefore negating potential WTF.
You are assuming that the intent to move triggers the "moved this turn" language, which is exactly the point we're debating.

My feeling, like I wrote above, is that the intent of the player doesn't matter. If the figure moved, then WTF is gone. If a LEA is triggered on the departing space and not on the arriving space, and several have posted here that that is so, then the figure in question did not actually move. WTF, therefore, is still available.

The rules do not invoke a player's intent anywhere, for anything, so far as I can recall. The player's intent is therefore irrelevant. In my book. If no members of the 4th actually moved, then go ahead and WTF.

Finally, you can activate a figure without moving it. And triggering a LEA would be such an activation. Therefore, if one dies this way, you may activate only 3 more.

That's how I would do it. Interesting discussion. Good question, vegie!

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Last edited by Dad_Scaper; August 3rd, 2017 at 04:44 PM. Reason: otoh, i pretty much always do what ry says, so take my opinion here with a grain of salt. :)
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  #10568  
Old August 3rd, 2017, 05:53 PM
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Re: Question Dump: Post Your Questions Here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Underdark Rules glossary
Leaving Engagement Attack: A figure that moves out of an engagement with another figure may become subject to a “leaving engagement attack.” Normally, 1 attack die is rolled against the leaving figure, and no defense is allowed. Stealth, Flying, and Disengage special powers (among others) allow a figure to leave an engagement without taking an attack. If a figure receives 1 or more wounds from a leaving engagement attack, for the sake of rules resolution, it is considered to have received the wounds while on the last space in which it was engaged with the figure that rolled the leaving engagement attack. See also: Engagement.
The focus for the question should be the bolded part. The LEA doesn't come into play unless the figure moves out of engagement. So, even though it didn't make it, the figure had to move to trigger the LEA. It moved 0 spaces. The part in red doesn't come into play until after the figure moved and after the LEA is resolved and therefore doesn't change the fact that the figure did move in the first place.


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  #10569  
Old August 4th, 2017, 01:18 AM
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Re: Question Dump: Post Your Questions Here.

I vote no WTF. Per the segment of rulebook posted above, "a figure that moves out of an engagement..."

The use of the word "move" seems clear to me that the intent to move in the manner above negates WTF. Just my two cents, however.
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  #10570  
Old August 4th, 2017, 09:32 AM
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Re: Question Dump: Post Your Questions Here.

Playing some 1 vs 1 vs 1 next week, with 450 pt/18 fig armies, free for all. It's my 1st time doing this. Do you guys change your strategy with your team build when facing multiple teams?
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  #10571  
Old August 4th, 2017, 10:39 AM
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Re: Question Dump: Post Your Questions Here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericth74 View Post
Playing some 1 vs 1 vs 1 next week, with 450 pt/18 fig armies, free for all. It's my 1st time doing this. Do you guys change your strategy with your team build when facing multiple teams?
A symmetrical map will help to balance out the game.

3-way fights can quickly turn into a 2-on-1 if one side starts off too strong. Or one player hangs back until the other two are weakened from battling each other - trying to hold out to be last man or woman standing.

In some games, we've used a Points Destroyed scoring system to encourage more aggressive combat. All of your units might be destroyed but if you destroyed more than another player - you can still 'win.'
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  #10572  
Old August 4th, 2017, 10:50 AM
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Re: Question Dump: Post Your Questions Here.

I don't think a consequence of "WTF allowed" ruling would be that the disengaged 4th Mass didn't move at all and thus you could activate 5 different members in a turn. The disengage attempt happened during the movement phase; there isn't a separate "disengage if you are immediately moving away from an opponent on your first hex" phase. The question is if during the movement phase the 4th Mass moved.

IMO, WTF should be legal because he never leaves the space. Is there really a difference between "move 0" and not moving? The logic for that difference would probably be that Warforged Soldiers do get their autoshield (added when "rolling defense") against Majestic Fires (which lowers their defense to 0, they can still "roll 0") and do not get it against Paralyzing Stare (which does not allow them to "roll defense"). I am not sure if the same distinction exists for move 0 and not moving. I know "move 0" is frequently cited in FAQs but I think it's used so players understand they can use powers that say "after moving and before attacking" even if they don't move.
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