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  #1105  
Old December 7th, 2010, 07:41 AM
jschild jschild is offline
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Re: Demons/ghosts and religion

Organized Religion was the source of much misery and ignorance during the Middle Ages.

I guess Galileo didn't realize they were joking when they put him under house arrest.

I guess when Arnaud-Amaury, Abbot of Citeaux and military leader of the Cathar Crusade said ""Kill them all; for God knows His own" he was just joking.

The Crusades were all just fun silliness as well I guess. As was the Inquisition. Religion is at the heart of many conflicts, throughout History. Exactly how many people did God have the Jews kill AND murder (yes, he had the Jews outright murder many, many, many survivors of wars, including innocents not involved in battle).

Trying to toss that off and ignore that history is to whitewash history. There's nothing wrong in saying that church or group should not have done what they did, but to just discard it as if it doesn't matter barely one step above denying it happened at all.

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  #1106  
Old December 7th, 2010, 01:26 PM
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Re: Demons/ghosts and religion

Some random links on happiness, religion, and political beliefs.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/...eXJlbGlnaW9ubQ--
http://www.livescience.com/culture/0...iness-age.html

And from the Dalai Lama:
" I believe that the very purpose of our life is to seek happiness. That is clear. Whether one believes in religion or not, whether one believes in this religion or that religion, we all are seeking something better in life. So, I think, the very motion of our life is towards happiness…"
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  #1107  
Old December 7th, 2010, 01:44 PM
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Re: Demons/ghosts and religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by jschild View Post
Organized Religion was the source of much misery and ignorance during the Middle Ages.
As was it a source of education. Remember that the Catholic church was a main source of education and was intergral in increasing literacy with the populace, albeit the more wealthy populace.

Quote:
I guess Galileo didn't realize they were joking when they put him under house arrest.
But consider that he was far ahead of his time. Look at Julian Assange today: it's not just religions that persecute people wrongly.

Quote:
I guess when Arnaud-Amaury, Abbot of Citeaux and military leader of the Cathar Crusade said ""Kill them all; for God knows His own" he was just joking.
Yeah, and Hitler was a great Christian figurehead too. Same with Pol Pot, same with Mao. Oh, let's not forget Stalin. It's IDEOLOGY that is the culprit, not religion. You must've been molested by a priest or something to have such total hatred for religion that it's blinding you to the fact that STRONG, BLIND IDEOLOGY is the main source of pain in the world, not religion, although religion is a STRONG, BLIND IDEOLOGY.

Quote:
The Crusades were all just fun silliness as well I guess. As was the Inquisition. Religion is at the heart of many conflicts, throughout History. Exactly how many people did God have the Jews kill AND murder (yes, he had the Jews outright murder many, many, many survivors of wars, including innocents not involved in battle).
The Crusades were as much political as ideological, John. It was about expanding influence. The Romans did the same thing before, as did the Greeks, as did the Russians, as did the Mongols, as did the Byzantine Empire. It's about expanding political influence, not religion. It's done in the name of religion, but at the end of the day, it's political influence and imperial expansionism that ran the show.

Quote:
Trying to toss that off and ignore that history is to whitewash history. There's nothing wrong in saying that church or group should not have done what they did, but to just discard it as if it doesn't matter barely one step above denying it happened at all.
That's facetious at best and outright ignorance of fact and reality at worst. Who's the one who's trying to whitewash here: you are a very, very bright guy and have proved it on several occasions, bro. You can't look at these instances that you've shown and not have a realistic, seccular example of why it wasn't religion (with exception of Galileo). Even in the Galileo example, people have been ostracized for speaking out against/for Global Warming. When a contentious idea comes out, there's always the people who fight against changing the status quo, and back then, there was no "civil rights" protections.

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  #1108  
Old December 7th, 2010, 01:55 PM
jschild jschild is offline
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Re: Demons/ghosts and religion

Quote:
But consider that he was far ahead of his time. Look at Julian Assange today: it's not just religions that persecute people wrongly.
Of course not, nor am I trying to imply any such thing. That post was specifically in response to Wonderball claiming

"Christianity has always been tolerant, not just in modern times."

which is total bunk.

Quote:
Yeah, and Hitler was a great Christian figurehead too. Same with Pol Pot, same with Mao. Oh, let's not forget Stalin. It's IDEOLOGY that is the culprit, not religion. You must've been molested by a priest or something to have such total hatred for religion that it's blinding you to the fact that STRONG, BLIND IDEOLOGY is the main source of pain in the world, not religion, although religion is a STRONG, BLIND IDEOLOGY.
Again, you've clearly missed what I was referencing. Everything in context, Pete. You even stated it yourself, religion is a STRONG, BLIND IDEOLOGY. You'd have to be insane to even try to claim that religion hasn't had tons of good points as well. I was just pointing out specific examples since Wonderball and Grim seem to not want to admit that it has been a force of good AND evil throughout it's history, just like most other religions.

Quote:
The Crusades were as much political as ideological, John. It was about expanding influence. The Romans did the same thing before, as did the Greeks, as did the Russians, as did the Mongols, as did the Byzantine Empire. It's about expanding political influence, not religion. It's done in the name of religion, but at the end of the day, it's political influence and imperial expansionism that ran the show.
And the Catholic Church, which was THE religion in Europe at the time, wasn't involved. I never said there were not multiple causes. Take things in context as I was still clearly talking about Wonderballs "Christianity has always been tolerant" statement.

Quote:
That's facetious at best and outright ignorance of fact and reality at worst. Who's the one who's trying to whitewash here: you are a very, very bright guy and have proved it on several occasions, bro. You can't look at these instances that you've shown and not have a realistic, seccular example of why it wasn't religion (with exception of Galileo). Even in the Galileo example, people have been ostracized for speaking out against/for Global Warming. When a contentious idea comes out, there's always the people who fight against changing the status quo, and back then, there was no "civil rights" protections.
Taking things out of context again Pete. Still clearly in reference to Christianity's sins, here. I believe every group/religion/country should own up to their mistakes. Admitting our screwing up of the lives of the Iranians isn't blaming America first, it's nothing more and nothing less than admitting that we are directly involved in the situations going on in Iran today, because of our past actions. Does that justify someone blowing himself to kill innocents? No (though to him, the answer is clearly yes), but people have to acknowledge their screw-ups because if they hide and ignore them, they will absolutely not learn from them.

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  #1109  
Old December 7th, 2010, 02:13 PM
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Re: Demons/ghosts and religion

JS why do you say that Christianity being tolerant is total bunk? As I said before, It's Christians, who are just regular human beings prone to political and ideological ideals, that make all the mistakes. However, I think if you look specifically at what Christians are called to do, that all that is there is a peaceful religion that tells its followers to love their enemies and pray for those that persecute them.

Don't confuse that with what happened in the Old Testament where God told the Jews to annihilate innocents. Virtually all of the old commandments, from killing off innocents to eating pork, applied only to the Jews, but when Christ sacrificed Himself, things changed.

Just keep in mind, that Christianity has really only been around for about 2000 years. Looking at what Christianity says, I find it difficult to see how one can interpret it as intolerant.

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  #1110  
Old December 7th, 2010, 02:21 PM
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Re: Demons/ghosts and religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jandarforever View Post
JS why do you say that Christianity being tolerant is total bunk? As I said before, It's Christians, who are just regular human beings prone to political and ideological ideals, that make all the mistakes. However, I think if you look specifically at what Christians are called to do, that all that is there is a peaceful religion that tells its followers to love their enemies and pray for those that persecute them.

Don't confuse that with what happened in the Old Testament where God told the Jews to annihilate innocents. Virtually all of the old commandments, from killing off innocents to eating pork, applied only to the Jews, but when Christ sacrificed Himself, things changed.

Just keep in mind, that Christianity has really only been around for about 2000 years. Looking at what Christianity says, I find it difficult to see how one can interpret it as intolerant.
In other words, God was evil back then, but everything is cool now. Why couldn't he just be a non-douche bag all along?

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  #1111  
Old December 7th, 2010, 02:24 PM
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Re: Demons/ghosts and religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by ParaGoomba Slayer View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jandarforever View Post
JS why do you say that Christianity being tolerant is total bunk? As I said before, It's Christians, who are just regular human beings prone to political and ideological ideals, that make all the mistakes. However, I think if you look specifically at what Christians are called to do, that all that is there is a peaceful religion that tells its followers to love their enemies and pray for those that persecute them.

Don't confuse that with what happened in the Old Testament where God told the Jews to annihilate innocents. Virtually all of the old commandments, from killing off innocents to eating pork, applied only to the Jews, but when Christ sacrificed Himself, things changed.

Just keep in mind, that Christianity has really only been around for about 2000 years. Looking at what Christianity says, I find it difficult to see how one can interpret it as intolerant.
In other words, God was evil back then, but everything is cool now. Why couldn't he just be a non-douche bag all along?
I'm really not the one to ask here. All I'm trying to say is that if you just look at what Christianity says, it's a bit difficult to get intolerant out of it.

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  #1112  
Old December 7th, 2010, 02:26 PM
jschild jschild is offline
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Re: Demons/ghosts and religion

Please read what I actually typed.

Quote:
"Christianity has always been tolerant, not just in modern times."

which is total bunk.
I clearly said that the statement "Christianity has always been tolerant, not just in modern times" was bunk.

I did NOT say that there are not tolerant Christians, nor did I say there have not been periods of times when the majority of Christianity was very tolerant. You are adding things that are not there, my friend.

Quote:
As I said before, It's Christians, who are just regular human beings prone to political and ideological ideals, that make all the mistakes.
I agree they are regular people, just as good and just as bad as anyone else. If I've said otherwise anywhere, please point it out to me and I will apologize for saying it.

Quote:
However, I think if you look specifically at what Christians are called to do, that all that is there is a peaceful religion that tells its followers to love their enemies and pray for those that persecute them.
Yes, Jesus did indeed say that. But various Christian Churches and Christians themselves have often throughout history disregarded that - up to, and including, present history. I personally thought Jesus was a pretty cool guy. Too bad most of his followers would despise him today if they met him in person.


Quote:
Don't confuse that with what happened in the Old Testament where God told the Jews to annihilate innocents. Virtually all of the old commandments, from killing off innocents to eating pork, applied only to the Jews, but when Christ sacrificed Himself, things changed.
I haven't confused them. I've specifically referred to the Jewish God in many instances in regards to things "God" has told his people to do, as opposed to actions of the followers of the religion.

Quote:
Just keep in mind, that Christianity has really only been around for about 2000 years. Looking at what Christianity says, I find it difficult to see how one can interpret it as intolerant.
Then you have to deny reality. Christian Churches and Christians themselves has been intolerant of Jews throughout most of modern history, as well as other religions, and even specific groups of people. Does that mean every single Church and every single Christian has? Hell no. But denying the long history of Christians punishing groups different from them is to whitewash history. Does that mean every Christian should be vilified for bad Christians actions? No, but they should acknowledge those dark spots so they can do their best to prevent them from ever happening again.

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  #1113  
Old December 7th, 2010, 02:43 PM
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Re: Demons/ghosts and religion

Quote:
I clearly said that the statement "Christianity has always been tolerant, not just in modern times" was bunk.

I did NOT say that there are not tolerant Christians, nor did I say there have not been periods of times when the majority of Christianity was very tolerant. You are adding things that are not there, my friend.
I think we might be talking about two different things. What I'm trying to say is that the Christian messages and ideals that were taught by Jesus, and that Christians are supposed to live by, are clearly peaceful and loving.
Does that mean that Christians throughout history have followed them the way that they were intended. Absolutely not. This may be where we are not on the same page. Again, I'm just talking about the Christian ideals, but you seem to be talking about the history associated with Christianity, and therefore the Christians who wrongfully brought it all about. Correct me if I'm wrong though, because I really do want to have a clear understanding of where you're coming from.

Quote:
Quote:
However, I think if you look specifically at what Christians are called to do, that all that is there is a peaceful religion that tells its followers to love their enemies and pray for those that persecute them.
----------------------------------------------------------
Yes, Jesus did indeed say that. But various Christian Churches and Christians themselves have often throughout history disregarded that - up to, and including, present history. I personally thought Jesus was a pretty cool guy. Too bad most of his followers would despise him today if they met him in person.
Can't really disagree here, but again, you seem to be saying that Christianity itself is not tolerant because of what certain churches and individuals have done and said. I agree completely that there are and have been Christains who are very intolerant, but the actual message of Christianity never condones this. I prefer to blame the messenger, rather than the message.


Quote:
Quote:
Just keep in mind, that Christianity has really only been around for about 2000 years. Looking at what Christianity says, I find it difficult to see how one can interpret it as intolerant.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Then you have to deny reality. Christian Churches and Christians themselves has been intolerant of Jews throughout most of modern history, as well as other religions, and even specific groups of people. Does that mean every single Church and every single Christian has? Hell no. But denying the long history of Christians punishing groups different from them is to whitewash history. Does that mean every Christian should be vilified for bad Christians actions? No, but they should acknowledge those dark spots so they can do their best to prevent them from ever happening again.
Again, I definitely agree that Christians as people have been intolerant. I just don't think that mistakes they have made mean that Christianity is intolerant. Does it come across that way? Yes, but the Christain messages themselves never condone that. You are absolutely right that we should try our best to prevent them from happening, but like I said before, Christians are just people and will make mistakes.

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Last edited by Jandarforever; December 7th, 2010 at 02:48 PM.
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  #1114  
Old December 7th, 2010, 02:55 PM
jschild jschild is offline
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Re: Demons/ghosts and religion

Quote:
I think we might be talking about two different things. What I'm trying to say is that the Christian messages and ideals that were taught by Jesus, and that Christians are supposed to live by, are clearly peaceful and loving.
For the most part I'd agree with you. I've always liked the guys style.

Quote:
but you seem to be talking about the history associated with Christianity, and therefore the Christians who wrongfully brought it all about. Correct me if I'm wrong though, because I really do want to have a clear understanding of where you're coming from.
Indeed I am. That's what started this whole recent bout was Wonderball's assertion that Chrstiananity has always been tolerant. Jesus and his teachings were. The history of the Christian people has been anything but, though early on, and in more modern times, they have been as a whole mostly to the good in this respect.

Quote:
I prefer to blame the messenger, rather than the message.
It's more we have to acknowledge we've sometimes have had crappy messengers and we should acknowledge that fact, while not being chained down by it.

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  #1115  
Old December 7th, 2010, 02:58 PM
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Re: Demons/ghosts and religion

You can't blame "Christianity" as a whole for the atrocities committed in its name.

That's a bit like blaming all Germans for the slaughter of innocents in WW2, like blaming all the inhabitants of Africa for the slaughter in Rwanda, or blaming the Constitution for the slaughter of civilians done in its name in Iraq.

It's too broad a brushstroke. Christianity in its whole is benign, as is Islam or Judaism. It's the people that misinterpret the religion for their own nefarious purposes that causes the havok in the world. As I said, it's IDEOLOGY, blind and strong, that causes trouble.

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  #1116  
Old December 7th, 2010, 02:59 PM
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Re: Demons/ghosts and religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by jschild View Post
Quote:
I think we might be talking about two different things. What I'm trying to say is that the Christian messages and ideals that were taught by Jesus, and that Christians are supposed to live by, are clearly peaceful and loving.
For the most part I'd agree with you. I've always liked the guys style.

Quote:
but you seem to be talking about the history associated with Christianity, and therefore the Christians who wrongfully brought it all about. Correct me if I'm wrong though, because I really do want to have a clear understanding of where you're coming from.
Indeed I am. That's what started this whole recent bout was Wonderball's assertion that Chrstiananity has always been tolerant. Jesus and his teachings were. The history of the Christian people has been anything but, though early on, and in more modern times, they have been as a whole mostly to the good in this respect.

Quote:
I prefer to blame the messenger, rather than the message.
It's more we have to acknowledge we've sometimes have had crappy messengers and we should acknowledge that fact, while not being chained down by it.
Awesome, well I'm glad we at least understand each other now. And yes we've had insanely crappy messengers. As long as people realize that Christianity is not about pissing people off by burning Korans, I think we'd be taking a step in the right direction.

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