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  #1201  
Old November 24th, 2009, 11:50 AM
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Re: Sports: NFL

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Originally Posted by Wytefang View Post
Favre's arrival heralded a 9-1 record which is a huge change from the year before
Again, this is a silly argument - you're basically penalizing the other contenders in the MVP race for not switching to a team that had a crappy QB the year before. Just because Favre is a mercenary with no team loyalty doesn't mean he gets extra credit in the MVP race.

Besides, the Vikings finished the year 5-1, and were picked by many to win their division BEFORE Favre signed on. This was a good team without Favre, and it's a good team with him. No shocker.

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Originally Posted by Wytefang View Post
and his excellence in the Red Zone and in his TD/INT ratio is also amazing. Favre has 21 TDs and only 3 (!!) INTs while Peyton has 21 TDs also and 9 INTs.
So, only the stats that make Favre look good count?

If you look at advanced rate stats like pro-football-reference's adjusted net yards per pass attempt, or football outsider's defense-adjusted yards above replacement, Manning looks as good or better than Favre. And even in the stats where Favre leads the league, Manning is top three, while Favre is much farther down the list in all the stats that reflect accumulated value.

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Not only that but Favre is involving the Offense like no one else other than Drew Brees. He has literally improved the play of everyone around here.
Ummmm.... you might want to look at Adrian Peterson's 2008 numbers before you make that claim. Because it's, you know, not true.

And again, insofar as he has improved the numbers/performance of players, this basically amounts to rewarding Favre for replacing Gus Frerotte. It's not Brees's or Manning's or Brady's fault that they didn't yank their teams around and fake retire so they could sign somewhere else.

I think it's hard to argue that guys like Garcon and Collie would be budding stars in the league with just anybody throwing to them. Watch Manning's TD throw to Garcon from the Pats game and then try to tell me that Manning isn't making him look good.

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Originally Posted by Wytefang View Post
It's easy to see why several noted Sports Writers are starting to seriously consider him for MVP contention.
Peter King has spent the last several years on his knees in front of Favre. And he wasn't praying.

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  #1202  
Old November 24th, 2009, 12:18 PM
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Re: Sports: NFL

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How awesome was it that Fisher didn't ice the Kicker? He didn't look ready to kick, did he?

~Aldin, glad it didn't go to overtime on a work night

That thought had occured to me while I was saying 'what is he waiting for?' to myself. The kicker may very well have been waiting for the whilstle to blow for the timeout and while waiting tensed a bit. A nice little mind game there if that is what happened.

Yeah, OT would have put me in bed far later than I should have been, but it still would have been fun... well, maybe until this morning.

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  #1203  
Old November 24th, 2009, 01:10 PM
Wytefang Wytefang is offline
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Re: Sports: NFL

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
Again, this is a silly argument - you're basically penalizing the other contenders in the MVP race for not switching to a team that had a crappy QB the year before. Just because Favre is a mercenary with no team loyalty doesn't mean he gets extra credit in the MVP race.
Ah, so I should've realized you're a Favre-hater - that would have flavored how I approached this conversation, since it's unlikely you'd agree to any points that show him as a great player. And small newsflash here, players are ALL mercenaries thanks to Free Agency. So whining because a still-great player found a team to play on doesn't make a lot of sense.

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
Besides, the Vikings finished the year 5-1, and were picked by many to win their division BEFORE Favre signed on. This was a good team without Favre, and it's a good team with him. No shocker.
It was a decent team but one without a solid QB and once one showed up, look what happened. Also, I'm not penalizing anyone - the fact that the team is much better (the 5-1 finish to the 2008 season looked great on paper but wasn't terribly impressive when you considered the games played and the timing of the importance of those games - just look at how we pasted Arizona but yet they clearly didn't care about that game for whatever reaason) is a key issue regardless of other team's situations. No one's faulting any other team for not sucking the year before but it's simply something that you have to take into account when you look at this whole thing.

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So, only the stats that make Favre look good count?
Nope, just pointing out that there are a bunch of important stats that come into play - I noticed that you left out the TD-to-INT ratio and so it bore mentioning. It's not my fault if the stats make Favre look good - Favre makes Favre look good.

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
If you look at advanced rate stats like pro-football-reference's adjusted net yards per pass attempt, or football outsider's defense-adjusted yards above replacement, Manning looks as good or better than Favre. And even in the stats where Favre leads the league, Manning is top three, while Favre is much farther down the list in all the stats that reflect accumulated value.
You keep kneeling down to the stats - last I checked they didn't mean sh*t in the real world. Just ask the 2007 Patriots.

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
Ummmm.... you might want to look at Adrian Peterson's 2008 numbers before you make that claim. Because it's, you know, not true.
Ummmm...you might want to look at the fact that stats do not entirely paint the entire picture. I highly doubt that the Vikings or their fans care if AP's stats are slightly lower - it's merely a reflection of the fact that we have a lot more weapons. Doesn't change the confidence and leadership Favre has brought to the table or the high expectations he puts on his receivers, who have responded (See: Shiancoe, Rice to name a few). Doesn't change the fact that he has, in fact, improved the entire team. Furthermore, you could easily argue that Peterson is even MORE dangerous this season as team's can't really load the box to stop our only threat...so now he seems to get into the 10-20 yd run-ranges more easily. Yeah, he doesn't break out as many long TD runs but that's more of a reflection of how team's have to fear Favre torching them...so they're putting more guys back in the Secondary and thus there have been extra guys there to stop the long AP runs of the past.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
And again, insofar as he has improved the numbers/performance of players, this basically amounts to rewarding Favre for replacing Gus Frerotte. It's not Brees's or Manning's or Brady's fault that they didn't yank their teams around and fake retire so they could sign somewhere else.
Again, we're purely looking at the facts that show the improvements of the players around Favre. I couldn't care less what caused Favre to join the team or how it happened. For the life of me, unless you're a Packer's fan, I can't fathom why the heck anyone else would care. Not your team, not your problem. Too many "manly" NFL guys that whine about this, imho.

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
I think it's hard to argue that guys like Garcon and Collie would be budding stars in the league with just anybody throwing to them. Watch Manning's TD throw to Garcon from the Pats game and then try to tell me that Manning isn't making him look good.
Fair enough but at the worst they're both equal in this regard.

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
Peter King has spent the last several years on his knees in front of Favre. And he wasn't praying.
Crude innuendo aside, who cares? Should Peter King be worshiping Peyton a lot more than he always has, too? Besides, as I've said, in the past few years he's been pretty harsh on Favre, so claiming that he's overly-biased towards him seems inaccurate to me.

Finally and for the record, I actually really like Peyton Manning - he's incredible. But that doesn't mean I can't admit that Favre is slowly but surely building up a great argument for himself to win the MVP...IF things continue along the same progression (of course).
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  #1204  
Old November 24th, 2009, 01:40 PM
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Re: Sports: NFL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wytefang View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Again, this is a silly argument - you're basically penalizing the other contenders in the MVP race for not switching to a team that had a crappy QB the year before. Just because Favre is a mercenary with no team loyalty doesn't mean he gets extra credit in the MVP race.
Ah, so I should've realized you're a Favre-hater - that would have flavored how I approached this conversation, since it's unlikely you'd agree to any points that show him as a great player.
Oh, I'm not a Favre-hater. I'm mostly joking about that stuff. I'll admit I rooted for the Broncos in the '98 Super Bowl, but that was mostly because I root for the underdog all things being equal. I don't really have any rooting interest in the NFC North, and my NFC team of choice (the 'skins) are well out of the playoff picture.

I admit that I found the off-season Favre obsession of the last three or four years really, really annoying, and I do think Favre did a lot of things to create that media frenzy. But it's not like he killed anybody. It's not a big deal.

Favre is a first-ballot HOFer, and is having a fantastic capping season (or two?) to his incredible career. I just happen to think that he's about the 5th most valuable player in the league this year. That doesn't seem like a big insult to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wytefang View Post
And small newsflash here, players are ALL mercenaries thanks to Free Agency.
Well, not all of them - there are rare cases of players taking pay cuts because they like a team and like the situation. But sure, those are the exception, not the rule.

The "stirring the pot" emoticon was supposed to denote that I was just bringing up silly controversy and didn't really take it seriously. Maybe I should have used the "wink" emoticon in stead?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wytefang View Post
So whining because a still-great player found a team to play on doesn't make a lot of sense.
Sure, but the whole "look how much better they are" argument really implies that Favre deserves extra credit for replacing a bad QB. Is Favre way, way better than Gus Frerotte? Yes, of course. Is 2009 Peyton Manning way, way better than 2008 Peyton Manning? No, of course not. 2008 Peyton Manning was the MVP! My point is that neither of these things are really relevant, in and of themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wytefang View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
So, only the stats that make Favre look good count?
Nope, just pointing out that there are a bunch of important stats that come into play - I noticed that you left out the TD-to-INT ratio and so it bore mentioning. It's not my fault if the stats make Favre look good - Favre makes Favre look good.

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
If you look at advanced rate stats like pro-football-reference's adjusted net yards per pass attempt, or football outsider's defense-adjusted yards above replacement, Manning looks as good or better than Favre. And even in the stats where Favre leads the league, Manning is top three, while Favre is much farther down the list in all the stats that reflect accumulated value.
You keep kneeling down to the stats - last I checked they didn't mean sh*t in the real world. Just ask the 2007 Patriots.
Hey, I rooted against them, too.

Stats aren't everything, I agree - especially in a sport like football where each player's success is, to a great degree, dependent on what other players on the field are doing.

Take the Indy/Baltimore game last week.

- On their first drive, Manning threw a simply incredible deep ball to Pierre Garcon. Garcon basically ran in a straight line deep, and the ball hit him in stride, just beyond the safety help. A perfect throw by any reasonable standard.

- After Garcon was tackled inside the 10, the Colts had first and goal. Manning throws a fade to Dallas Clark. Frankly, Manning overthrew the pass a little bit. But Clark makes a simply incredible catch, reaching up with ONE hand and spearing the ball right on the point.

Now, by the stats, both of these are just completions. The stats don't know that the first pass was an amazing play by Manning and just a good one by Garcon, while the second was just an average throw by Manning and an amazing catch by Clark.

So, long story short... yes, stats don't tell the whole story. In order to really judge players you need to watch games. But stats are an important part of the story. They tell you a lot. Not everything, but a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wytefang View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Ummmm.... you might want to look at Adrian Peterson's 2008 numbers before you make that claim. Because it's, you know, not true.
Ummmm...you might want to look at the fact that stats do not entirely paint the entire picture. I highly doubt that the Vikings or their fans care if AP's stats are slightly lower - it's merely a reflection of the fact that we have a lot more weapons. Doesn't change the confidence and leadership Favre has brought to the table or the high expectations he puts on his receivers, who have responded (See: Shiancoe, Rice to name a few).
Yes, Favre has been much better at hitting those guys than Frerotte or Tavaris Jackson were. Yes, Favre is a good leader for his team. Yes, Favre has been excellent this year.

None of these things make him the MVP, though, because other QBs have done more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wytefang View Post
Doesn't change the fact that he has, in fact, improved the entire team. Furthermore, you could easily argue that Peterson is even MORE dangerous this season as team's can't really load the box to stop our only threat...so now he seems to get into the 10-20 yd run-ranges more easily. Yeah, he doesn't break out as many long TD runs but that's more of a reflection of how team's have to fear Favre torching them...so they're putting more guys back in the Secondary and thus there have been extra guys there to stop the long AP runs of the past.
Well, AP's numbers are basically identical to last year's - both in terms of yardage and in terms of average per carry. It seems odd to argue that Favre has made a huge difference for him.

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Originally Posted by Wytefang View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
I think it's hard to argue that guys like Garcon and Collie would be budding stars in the league with just anybody throwing to them. Watch Manning's TD throw to Garcon from the Pats game and then try to tell me that Manning isn't making him look good.
Fair enough but at the worst they're both equal in this regard.
I simply disagree. What Manning does to carry that offense is, to me, simply incredible. His offensive line is bad in run-blocking and only average in pass-blocking, yet he does an amazing job getting rid of the ball extremely quickly while still being accurate. (One of my favorite plays of the year was when a defensive lineman got up and started celebrating his "sack" of Manning, only to turn around and realize that Manning had completed a pass 20 yards downfield just as he had delivered the hit. ) None of the Colts receivers are particularly good at winning jump balls (like Colston or Moss or Rice are) and with the exception of Wayne, they rarely give Manning big windows to throw into, either.

This is the unquantifiable, non-stats stuff, but personally, I give Manning a bigger share of the credit for the success of his team's passing game than any other QB. YMMV.

Personally, I think voting for someone other than Peyton Manning for MVP is a sign of sportswriter boredom. Call it the Jordan effect (or the Charles Barkley/Karl Malone effect).

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  #1205  
Old November 24th, 2009, 01:47 PM
Wytefang Wytefang is offline
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Re: Sports: NFL

Okay, fair enough...I must admit that your post rubbed the wrong way in a stressful week for me (5th surgery for my son yesterday).

And I'll be the first to say that Favre is doing great but probably not good enough for MVP at this point.

The Colts without Manning probably are doomed - I'm not sure we'd be as bad off without Favre.
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  #1206  
Old November 24th, 2009, 02:06 PM
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Re: Sports: NFL

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
Favre is a first-ballot HOFer, and is having a fantastic capping season (or two?) to his incredible career. I just happen to think that he's about the 5th most valuable player in the league this year. That doesn't seem like a big insult to me.
I think here is the crux of an entirely different arguement that is a factor here: Should the MVP award really go to the most valuable player every year?

Seems like a silly question, but the answer has been "no" in past MVP voting (across all major sports leagues). Leagues and voters want to give the MVP to an impact player or someone who does something new in a given year (like turn a team around). They don't want to just hand the award to the same one or two guys every year. You didn't see the NBA hand Micheal Jordan the MVP every year even though he clearly was the MVP once he hit his stride.

If we really went by the strict interpretation of MVP, I'd have a hard time handing the award to anyone besides Brady or Manning for the past several years (and for the foreseeable future). But the NFL isn't going to do that (though they will get one every now and again) because it's not what the award is really about.

By a strict definition, Favre is not the most valuable player in the league, but his impact is clearly noticeable in both wins and the attitude of the Vikings. He's taken a good team and turned it into a powerhouse and that's the kind of stuff that wins MVP awards.

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  #1207  
Old November 24th, 2009, 02:16 PM
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Re: Sports: NFL

I agree completely, Dignan. It's true across all leagues. The closest to an "honest" voting pool is probably the NL MVP voters, who gave Bonds a bunch of MVPs late in his career despite the fact that most of them hated Bonds and suspected he was on steroids.

ETA: and, as if on cue, Puhols wins his (well-deserved) third MVP. For whatever reason, NL MVP voters are immune to the "let's vote for someone new" effect.

artemiscorso, I'm not going to spend a block of time responding to that post, since it doesn't seem like you've thought through that argument. But, if you insist, give a consistent standard for what the MVP means to you, and then try to argue why five or six QBs had better seasons by those standards. Good luck with that.

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Last edited by dok; November 24th, 2009 at 06:37 PM.
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  #1208  
Old November 24th, 2009, 03:22 PM
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Re: Sports: NFL

Actually, Manning didn't really deserve the MVP last year, as there were 5 or 6 quarterbacks who had better seasons. Then Manning lost again in the playoffs which he has a habit of(which has nothing to do with the Mvp award, I was just saying). I think the reverse was true last year that they just gave it to somebody on a name basis. As far as this year Manning is actually having an MVP worthy year, but so are Drew Brees and Brett Favre. If the Titans had a little better record you would also have to consider Chris Johnson for the award.

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  #1209  
Old November 24th, 2009, 07:43 PM
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Re: Sports: NFL

...anyway, I'm very glad to see that the Saints will be going against the Patriots. Time for a test that Manning beat earlier.

Also, can't wait to see Culpepper go against the Packers. Should be fun to watch.
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  #1210  
Old November 24th, 2009, 08:51 PM
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Re: Sports: NFL

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Originally Posted by nyys View Post
If Favre wasn't 40 I don't think there would be any mention of MVP, or at least not to this extent. But the fact that he is still putting up good (not great) numbers at this age is skewing perspective.

It would be nice for someone to start a Brett Favre thread or an NFL MVP thread 2009-2010. That way this can be a thread about the NFL in general.


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  #1211  
Old November 24th, 2009, 09:07 PM
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Re: Sports: NFL

Now don't be a bitter Browns fan just because they're having a rough year. :P Let us Viking fans enjoy our fun season (so far, anyway). Part of that is the inimical Mr. Favre.
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  #1212  
Old November 24th, 2009, 09:12 PM
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Re: Sports: NFL

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Now don't be a bitter Browns fan just because they're having a rough year. :P Let us Viking fans enjoy our fun season (so far, anyway). Part of that is the inimical Mr. Favre.
No. I love Brett Favre (in a fanlike manner). I'm not bitter at all. I love talking about him. The browns almost always have a bad year. But, I will always be a fan.

since the browns aren't in the playoff picture, i am rooting for the Vikes in the NFC and the Colts in the AFC.


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