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  #205  
Old July 24th, 2015, 03:49 AM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
Sock, what you are talking about with lynch pin units to form the team around can be achieved for the JL in the same way. The glyph system isn't needed to achieve the same result that previous figure cards achieved. MM 2.0 and Cyborg 2.0 both can have different JL synergy built into their cards such that they become one of the JL lynch pin units to decide between.
Sock, I think you've unintentionally convinced almost everyone that Markers are the best option, by proposing the radical extreme of the team card. Ironically uplifting your original cause, by abandoning it.

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  #206  
Old July 24th, 2015, 03:53 AM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
Sock, what you are talking about with lynch pin units to form the team around can be achieved for the JL in the same way. The glyph system isn't needed to achieve the same result that previous figure cards achieved. MM 2.0 and Cyborg 2.0 both can have different JL synergy built into their cards such that they become one of the JL lynch pin units to decide between.
I understand this. But I'm saying they are still the ones delivering the same synergy bonus each time.

Let me explain that a bit more.

You draft Professor X to get 2 turns.
You draft Sage to get +1 d20 and +1 attack for 3 Mutants.
You draft Apocalypse for +1 attack for 5 Mutants.
You draft Cyclops to move Mutants.

When forming your team, your first step is really "which of those bonuses do I want to build my team around?". Once you decide, then you best choose who to benefit from said bonus.

So each time you build your Mutant team, you're choosing from those same bonuses to form your team.

With the Glyph idea, you could have upwards of 10 different units offering a specific power that suits your team to your desire, and all the different combinations between them.

Ugh, it's hard to explain. I thought I layed it out in the big post hoping it would explain it as I see it. But something isn't translating, or I'm just seeing something different.

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  #207  
Old July 24th, 2015, 03:56 AM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

Quote:
Originally Posted by laughing matter View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
Sock, what you are talking about with lynch pin units to form the team around can be achieved for the JL in the same way. The glyph system isn't needed to achieve the same result that previous figure cards achieved. MM 2.0 and Cyborg 2.0 both can have different JL synergy built into their cards such that they become one of the JL lynch pin units to decide between.
Sock, I think you've unintentionally convinced almost everyone that Markers are the best option, by proposing the radical extreme of the team card. Ironically uplifting your original cause, by abandoning it.
This isn't a team card, and I didn't initially propose it. I never abandoned the markers, I'm exploring all options. Shhh.

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  #208  
Old July 24th, 2015, 04:00 AM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by laughing matter View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
Sock, what you are talking about with lynch pin units to form the team around can be achieved for the JL in the same way. The glyph system isn't needed to achieve the same result that previous figure cards achieved. MM 2.0 and Cyborg 2.0 both can have different JL synergy built into their cards such that they become one of the JL lynch pin units to decide between.
Sock, I think you've unintentionally convinced almost everyone that Markers are the best option, by proposing the radical extreme of the team card. Ironically uplifting your original cause, by abandoning it.
This isn't a team card, and I didn't initially propose it. I never abandoned the markers, I'm exploring all options. Shhh.
You tricky little so and so.

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  #209  
Old July 24th, 2015, 04:06 AM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

If the markers end up being the way to go, of course I'll be happy. I'll also be annoyed that what we had was decent to begin with, only we needed to cover 20 other options before others could see it.

With that said, I legitimately feel these Justice League Glyphs are something special. They are "WOW" they have "Umph". I just don't think their potential and advantages are being made clear enough. I really stand by that, and I know Bats and Spidey feel the same. 2 members I respect. So I challenge everyone to explain why this system is not worth it, no good, and why we should take a more traditional route instead. I think the initial Team Card is giving the Glyph version a bad rap, when they aren't mechanically alike. This is a spawn of Apocalypse/Batman II's Glyph abilities.

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  #210  
Old July 24th, 2015, 04:09 AM
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Gut Check

Initial thought. It feels like a lot of work for little gain. I'll ruminate more and see what I think so don't consider that my final say on the matter.

~Dysole, who likes the idea of both JL and Avengers utilizing similar concepts aka markers


This sentence has exactly seven words.
This sentence doesn't have exactly seven words.

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  #211  
Old July 24th, 2015, 04:25 AM
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Re: Gut Check

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
Initial thought. It feels like a lot of work for little gain.
A lot of work, perhaps, but I disagree on the little gain part. You're looking at a synergy with several possibilities when forming an army. It's also giving a lot of love to designs that you've played with many times over. Whatever Doctor Fate brings to the table for his Glyph power, may make his character that much more fun to use. Flash that can carry a small or medium figure when moving, as long as he doesn't attack? Zatanna throwing down a useful tile of her choosing? Aquaman being able to heal one additional time per round? Wonder Woman's lassoed figure having to tell the truth(expose all the Order Markers while lassoed)? These sound like a lot to gain for each character involved, and for the synergy as a whole.

It's expanding what a normal synergy offers, which is 3-4 characters aiding in actual synergy, to potentially 10+ to choose from to aid in that actual synergy. It's also playing off a mechanic already used in a similar fashion, just in a new way. Batman prepares for his game by choosing appropriate glyphs that best suit his strengths in that particular game. Apocalypse does the same, with the choice of any 2 glyphs. Why not allow your team/synergy to do so, picking ones that can only be used by drafting specific people?

Guys, we're looking at a potential new Spell mechanic being added to the game, that will completely open up a giant new set of options to the game. This is absolutely minor in comparison. This is taking something we already have, but building a synergy on it.

Not only that, but say you're a huge fan of Blue Beatle, and you want him in on it. Well, propose a design for a Blue Beatle glyph, and run it through Public Design. As long as the power is balanced with the rest, I see no reason someone can't expand on it. Once the groundwork is laid, and that balance line is determined, it's all set for the future. We're all here to collaborate and find things that excite us all. There will be something for everyone to enjoy, really.

With the design itself, we can come up with 5 for initial release, and let people mix and match, and just see how fun it is. It'll feel no more threatening than Batman does with his 3 Utility Glyphs, which I bet caused just as much uncertainty at first before people saw it realized, the fact that Batman's gameplay can be customized by you, as it should. There's a charm to it, IMO.

I know, I know, I'm babbling on like a middle school girl at a slumber party, but it's only because I see the potential here. Clearly Bats does, because I haven't seen him this riled up in ages.

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  #212  
Old July 24th, 2015, 08:14 AM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

When I proposed the glyph system I mentioned that I thought it would be difficult to balance and cost which is why my preferred is still a Marker system. Also the adjust to champion class is great as a lot of JLers are already champions and so the limited markers with even just cyborg II and. MMII would still allow for a nice JL build. Throw in a Batman contingency plan and I Love it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
It was a great idea that really brought this concept to the next level and now I just have to convince you of your own brilliance.
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  #213  
Old July 24th, 2015, 08:21 AM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
As I suggested before, if there are concerns about stacking Avengers markers with JL markers, or indeed with Masters of Evil markers, then I suggest Avenger, JL, Masters of Evil, and Horseman of the Apocalypse markers all be classed as "team markers" and we just put in a rule that you cannot place multiple team markers on a card. Frankly, I have my doubts that this is really necessary, but it's certainly justified in theme.
I want to make sure this was noticed as well because I think it is worth a look and no one made a comment so I'm guessing most missed it.

Quote:
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It was a great idea that really brought this concept to the next level and now I just have to convince you of your own brilliance.
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  #214  
Old July 24th, 2015, 08:47 AM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

Exactly. I agree with all of your recent posts A_S.

I ask that no one listens to me, I am an idiot. Listen to one voice, my compass in the land of C3G, IamBatman. No one has his perspective.

If Bats thinks this is the way to go then I implore everyone to be a little more open minded and listen.

I think the Utility-esque glyph idea is brilliant. It accomplishes everything the Team Card idea strives for while using an established mechanic and requires only a single new version of a created card.

EDIT: I see A_S started a new thread that covers my deleted comment.

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  #215  
Old July 24th, 2015, 10:01 AM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock View Post
Just purely brainstorming here:

All the new designs are given the same class, we'll use Defender for this example.
Fwiw, I like the change the class idea a bit more than the marker idea (less hardware, cuts out other synergies in a pleasing way), though I'd go with Champion or League Member as the class.

That said, both you and I know at this point that we'd be settling for an OK idea, rather than going for a platinum one (johnny, I'm going to convert you to what we're doing yet!).

You've made a ton of excellent posts here that, to me at least, really detail why the Justice League Strategy Glyphs are such a good idea (working title there).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
Sock, what you are talking about with lynch pin units to form the team around can be achieved for the JL in the same way. The glyph system isn't needed to achieve the same result that previous figure cards achieved.
That's absolutely true. But I think Sock and I are both arguing that the Glyphs are a fairly elegant way to achieve better and unique results that will make this team play in a way really unique to this team and that will express its personality a lot better than mirroring the Avengers would (it's a slanted mirror, but still a mirror).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock View Post
If the markers end up being the way to go, of course I'll be happy. I'll also be annoyed that what we had was decent to begin with, only we needed to cover 20 other options before others could see it.
I think "decent" is the keyword here, which is why the only annoying thing would be to fall back to "decent" when, IMO, we've arrived on great (and could get greater still if we work to hone it - Japes' idea took our path up to the next level in a major way already, for instance).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock
With that said, I legitimately feel these Justice League Glyphs are something special. They are "WOW" they have "Umph".
I really think we're on the path to johnny's "Rome" here. And I don't think they're as new in a scary/gamebreaking way as some folks seem to think in the current version. They're basically just their own type of Utility Glyph at this point. The JL hub (Martian Manhunter 2.0 most likely) is just bringing Justice League Strategies to the game, and expressing those in glyphs.

Justice League is a collection of individuals. Their strategies have always been about what those individuals can do to make each other better. This approach will be endlessly flexible and endlessly customizable and will leave tons of room for individual characters NOT called out on the glyphs to join Justice League armies and benefit from the powers as well, because the powers will be slanted toward team play and towards helping other figures (as many of our examples have shown). They'll just be thematic in that they'll call out specific iconic characters for those boosts to occur.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
Initial thought. It feels like a lot of work for little gain.
It should be no more work than Batman 2.0 was, really. So I think it's extremely doable. It's designing one Unique Hero instead of three as well, so there might actually be a work efficiency advantage all things told.

And I disagree with the "little gain" of course, but that kind of moves to the next key point:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole
~Dysole, who likes the idea of both JL and Avengers utilizing similar concepts aka markers
I think we have two key camps right now, philosophically. We have those like Dysole, who view the Justice League as kind of Avengers Blue and the Avengers as Justice League Red - they're thematic parallels, just set in different universes, so it's nice and consistent for them just to mirror each other with slight tweaks to make each unique (let me know if I'm mischaracterizing you here, btw, please!)

Then there are those like johnny, who view the Justice League as a completely unique group that deserves completely unique treatment. It's ironic that he seems to most favor hanging synergy on class, since that's been done to death in terms of team synergy to this point, IMO, but that's an aside. johnny's looking not for a good idea, or a great one, but the "perfect" idea, and rejects treading down a path too similar to the Avengers.

So there seems to be the "Avenger Mirror" camp and the "Wow Factor" camp. I'm in the "Wow Factor" camp, and I think the Justice League Strategy Glyphs have it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by japes View Post
When I proposed the glyph system I mentioned that I thought it would be difficult to balance and cost which is why my preferred is still a Marker system.
I don't think it would be significantly more difficult to balance and cost than Batman 2.0's Utility Glyphs are. Your giving us that template to work off really helps this all fall into place, IMO. It was a great idea that really brought this concept to the next level and now I just have to convince you of your own brilliance.

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  #216  
Old July 24th, 2015, 10:40 AM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

Have these proposed glyphs been posted yet?
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