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  #7261  
Old May 3rd, 2021, 09:50 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Is this an official submission for the Wulfing Hunters?
No, the Wulfing Hunters are not being submitted. I am submitting these Wulfling Hunters though :P

@superfrog

. . . You want me to make a card instead of just doing the card text?

sure. I'll edit that in I guess.

https://www.heroscapers.com/communit...ng_hunters.jpg

Last edited by Shiftrex; May 4th, 2021 at 03:15 PM.
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  #7262  
Old May 7th, 2021, 06:13 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

The Wulfling Hunters have gone through a number of revisions, and I've enjoyed watching their journey. This design looks like it's obviously trying to make up for being a two-man squad, but personally I don't understand why some have a problem with that. They are a two-man squad, and they need some way to make up for that fact. Otherwise, this addresses most of the prior concerns.

to review the Wulfling Hunters
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  #7263  
Old May 7th, 2021, 06:24 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Shadow Wraith and Shadow Stalker by @Sir Heroscape

Xundar's pulling out a couple of new tricks in the form of new Shadows. While the ones that came before focused on offense and positioning, these are defensively-minded.

Balance

The best comparision points for the new Shadows are the old Shadows, as Shadows tend to be only useful in Xundar builds. They are both on the lower end of Shadow costs, with the Wraith tied with the Binder for the cheapest. Neither is very strong on offense, though, so a combat-focused Xundar build will probably still want more Hounds and Wraiths. Azazel builds are concerning, though. These new two are both not only cheaper than other Shadows, but built for defense, which is what Azazel wants.

Regardless, it's difficult to get much of a feel balance with these with just Theoryscaping.

Theme

I've always liked the theme of the faction, and these continue it well. The miniature of the Wraith doesn't scream "defense boost" to me, but it doesn't suggest anything else in particular either, so it works. There was some controversy at submission time about using a miniature for the Stalker that looks like a displacer beast, but that is a point in its favor, in my opinion. Xundar comes from a D&D world, so it's natural that he would base his shadows off of creatures from that world. The mix of Grapple and Shifting Shadow nail the theme of a displacer beast-like shadow well.

Creativity

These designs do a good job of finding a new niche in a Shadow army, which is covering an otherwise painful weakness of Shadow armies: their weak defense. The Wraith is a complete, solid-feeling design where Shadow Phase clearly helps the use of the Wraith's primary function, which is to get next to other Shadows to provide the Deepened Shadows boost. The Stalker is likewise a solid design when seen in the context of a Shadow army, providing a tank of sorts that can (hopefully) dodge attacks and control front line positioning.

Playability

The existing Shadow army can do well when they control the battlefield and keep up the pressure, but defensively can fall apart quickly. That's not because their Defense values are bad, but because the figures have sizable individual costs. Some defensive help is welcome.

First let's look at the Wraith. In theory, these are easy to use to provide helpful defensive boosts to the rest of your Shadows. In practice, it's not nearly that simple or helpful. When taking a Xundar turn, every Shadow turn needs to maximize its potential benefits for the army to maintain advantage. Taking a turn simply to give some +1 Defenses is almost never as valuable as getting in some Hound or Fiend attacks or breaking opponent's formations with a Binder. To use Wraiths you really want to get in an attack with them as well as set up Deepened Shadows, especially with their decent 3 Attack. This, however, tends to backfire, as the Wraiths themselves are especially weak defensively--even if backed up by other Wraiths--and putting them out in front to get that attack means they will be the first to fall in the counterattack. And the opponent won't even need to overextend to do so. In essense, these Wraith turns end up being overall suboptimal Shadow turns.

But being difficult to use well isn't the same as unusable. They work well in early positioning before battle lines are drawn to set up defensive waypoints and (hopefully) to solidify high ground on the front. And even as suboptimal attacks and defenders, the mobility that Shadow Phase gives can allow for attacks and positioning that would be difficult or impossible with other Shadows. I found them to be a decent addition in a Shadow army in small numbers with careful usage.

Next is the Stalker. Instead of providing a boost to other Shadows, the Stalker serves as a tank, despite its weak Defense 2, thanks to the helpful Shifting Shadow, especially when bunched with other Shadows. Don't get me wrong, Stalkers usually don't live very long. Despite looking like Vanish, Shifting Shadow is much weaker because the Stalker does not get to run away and avoid follow-up attacks, which is fatal for an unreliable d20-based defense. Still, the auto-defend is nice to have, especially against heavy hitters, and Stalkers aren't as important to keep alive as Hounds and Fiends. They don't have the offense to serve as the core of a Shadow army, but they slide in well as a way to keep attackers from your more valuable Shadows, especially if they have a Wraith behind them.

Grapple helps with that too in theory, but in actuallity it does very little against most armies. Squad figures don't disengage much anyway because of the 50% chance of dying. Grapple is annoying to small/medium heroes that are willing to disengage to go after juicier targets that don't have a chance of auto-dodging them, and of course it's helpful against Disengagers. For the most part, though, it doesn't often have an effect on the battle, except for...

Unfortunately for the Shadows, Azazel the Kyrie Warrior exists. Building an army of cheap Shadows just to get lots of turns to repeatedly resurrect the cursed Kyrie is a degenerate strategy, though one that has precedent with Kurrok. The danger is making the degenerate, rather unfun strategy better than an actual Xundar army. It's already comparable, and adding defensive Shadows can easily tip that in Azazel's favor.

In my experience, Wraiths do not make Azazel builds particularly better. It sure seems like they would; a wall of, say, Binders backed by a bunch of Wraiths seems pretty efficient. The thing is, Wraiths actually have crappy defense themselves. Cracking the initial wall may be more difficult, but then Wraiths fall easy. It ends up kind of a wash. And they are ever worse off if the Shadow army is built to fight back instead of just stand there, since Shadows need mobility to function well, and trying to keep your Wraiths up with the other Shadows just gets them killed.

I wish I could say the same thing about Stalkers, but I really can't. In fact, when using an Azazel strategy the Stalkers seem almost fine-turned to work with it. Shifting Shadows is super annoying for forces that overextended to get to Xundar, as the shadow cats benefit the most from staying in position (even better with Wraiths mixed in and/or Raelin nearby). In this setting Grapple also really shines, as good positioning makes it difficult or even impossible for opponents to hunt down Xundar. In my experience, spamming Stalkers is the way to go if you want to bring Azazel back repeatedly.

Summary

I like what both the Shadow Wraith and the Shadow Stalker bring to a Shadow army. While difficult to use well, Wraiths can be helpful if used sparingly and precisely. Stalkers provide a much-desired tank to the mix, even if that tank isn't all that reliable. However, just being a tank is the Stalker's downfall, as it makes the degenerate Azazel build significantly better and even more degenerate. So while I'm willing to put my stamp of approval on the Wraith, I'm afraid I can't do the same for the Stalker.

I vote Yay to induct the Shadow Wraith into the SoV.
I vote Nay to induct the Shadow Stalker into the SoV.
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  #7264  
Old May 10th, 2021, 06:23 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex View Post
Re-Submission

Here is the tune up from a few weeks ago. I think this iteration fits in more with the expectations of Hunters, with 2 man squads and provides a bit different of a playstyle.

It doesn't create a wall of no hitzones anymore and it doesn't touch the thought space of "Hunters" anymore. Nothing has changed in their leftbox or their bio (not that the bio matters). Some people have brought up similarities to Beakface Sneaks as a 2 man peer, I'd like to point out that Evasive is distinctly different than Stealthy in what it communicates as a power in both function and theme (props to Preyblood Thrall btw, it's a fun unit).

THE HUNT, is the name I finally settled on for their main power. It differs from the 2 powers it is inspired from in current scape because it is 1. tribal, 2. has specific requirements that communicate a generalized theme, 3. sets the unit up to like being "unengaged" as a whole.

Let me know what you think of the latest iteration. I think I have addressed all the previous concerns about fun/unfun gameplay.

I like that this version addresses the problem of potentially removing hitzones for a Common Squad, and the leftbox still looks strong to me.

I agree that Stealthy and Evasive have their differences, but it definitely still evokes the Sneaks (the bigger differences between the designs come from swapping out Flocking and The Hunt). Evasive works while engaged and Stealthy doesn't. The themes that they portray are indeed different, but that concern is the degree of mechanical similarity to the Beakface Sneaks, not any thematical similarity. As a 2-man squad, the comparison between this design and the Sneaks is very fair (potentially not a concern in playtesting, but it's something that I'm definitely wary of). It's not something that I would downvote over alone, though, especially because I could see them ultimately playing differently.

Unfortunately, without the context of other Wulfling cards, I keep coming back to the same conclusion each time that I look at this card: it very clearly wants to be a 4-person squad. To be clear, it's fine to prioritize meta values like better development, and 4-person squads are of course better in most "competitive" formats. That said, I think that the key factor is that these guys feel like they are trying to make up for only having two sculpts: there are frankly less distracting ways of making a 2-figure squad fit the tournament meta, and we shouldn't be letting cards feel like a compromise to fit one specific facet of the game.

The 4-person nature of this squad has been present in almost every draft, but the earlier versions had other elements that I thought made the card feel more distinct or at least carried more of the weight. With only the "fix" power and Stealthy, this version places the focus squarely on The Hunt, which is mostly tailored to the metagame. I see the intended theme of them hunting as a pack, but I don't think that it does enough to justify why they come as two hunters instead of as a full squad. Other units that obviously lacked a few sculpts to fill out the card--such as the 8th Infantry Pathfinders--generally feel more justified due to bigger mechanical differences from normal squads. Stuff like Kurrok's elementals feels unique because of how it builds a "squad" of diverse figures, and it simply couldn't have worked another way.

I could see the Wulfling Hunters achieving a similar status if they had something else going on right now, be that an accompanying squad or hero. In a vacuum, though, I don't find the argument of tournament relevance to be compelling enough to make up for the unit feeling like a compromise. to review the Wulfling Hunters, unfortunately.
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  #7265  
Old May 10th, 2021, 07:31 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Welp, I know it isn't a debate.

I definitely disagree with your post but thanks for voting.
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  #7266  
Old May 25th, 2021, 10:39 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

The Sneaks comparison is worrying, to be honest. I really don't want to see these guys encroaching on the space whittled out by the Beakfaces so far. At the same time, the open ended-ness of their power makes them pretty different, or at least potentially so. A lot of that would depend on what other Wulfling designs look like.

I'm going to vote here, with a big note on how they perform in testing. I'm hoping that they'll already be unique enough to be worth the at that point as well, and not a Greeks/Romans situation.
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  #7267  
Old May 31st, 2021, 12:18 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Swaysil by Marklar the Silver Prince


Centaurs are known to be a proud, noble and perhaps haughty race. Perhaps it is their snobbish attitudes that kept them off Valhalla, perhaps it was the smell of the manure. In any event, Ullar seems primed to summon the first centaur adding to his ever-expanding legion of archers. Let’s see if Swaysil is ready to join Ullar or simply end up as glue.

Balance – at 50 points Swaysil is in the same price range as a few low point heroes, however they mostly play much nicer with others than this Centaur Archer. Sir Orrick, Nerak and Me-Burq-Sa all bond, Sonya and Iskra are tided to other units, where as Arkmer, Brave Arrow, and Beorn work within their specific synergy web. With no Centaur boosting units, and Archers unlikely to ever get synergy, Swaysil is likely to remain a stand-alone figure, meaning she needs to stand on her own four feet.

Looking at her base stats, Swaysil has damage potential with her typical range backed by high mobility, allowing to get her on high ground – double space not withstanding. Her ragne/move combo allows her to kite melee units at the bottom of a hill, giving her time to get a few safe shots off. At short range she has even more damage output, potentially destroying two figures in one round with the extra attack from Point Blank Shot – albeit with significant risk due to her low survivability. Swaysil requires some finesse, deciding when to stay at maximum range, or charge in with Run Down due to the challenge from her aforementioned survivability. With only 2 defense protecting 4 life, Swaysil was a paper tiger, falling easily once engaged – but what do you expect for 50 points.

Creativity – The most competitive units in Heroscape seem to be specialists. Raeiln protects, Deathreavers swam, and the 4th wait then fire. Swaysil is a bit of swiss army knife, picking off stray melee figures when possible, charging in when necessary, and maybe grabbing a glyph in a pinch. While other designs can suffer from a designer trying to make their unit good at everything, not being specialized seemed to be the goal here. I believe a more robust Swaysil with higher defense and life would have been more “useful”, but less interesting. Keeping her low-cost and fragile was a very brave decision, and I believe the right one. As far as powers, Point Blank Shot and Run down are both very simple to understand, but play off each other really well. More over her short-range damage output plays off her weak survivability resulting in a unique unit to play and play against.

Theme – Centaur are half horse and horses use to be the tanks of the battlefield. This was almost enough to down vote Swaysil, as her low defense are at odds with the trope of war horse. It wasn’t until one game where I had Major Q9 shooting at Brave Arrow, that I was reminded it was not the size of the gun or thickness of armor that mattered, but the skill and temperament of the hero. Swaysil is a bold archer ready to run down her enemies at the cost of her own hide. Looking at her 2 defense as a demonstration of bravery and recklessness in the face of opposition and a vision of a Noble Centaur ready to protect those in danger takes form. Perhaps, this is what lead Ullar to choose to summon her in the first place.

Playability – When fielding Swaysil, I kept finding her in or near my start zone in the endgame. I tried a few times to charge out early to take out a glyph grabber or thin out leading squad figures. Using Swaysil early worked well against weaker players that over extend themselves, but against stronger opponents you give up board control or she is overwhelmed as back up units arrive. Leading with such a fragile figure is a dicey move unless the rest of your army is ready to steamroll our opponent, which begs the question why not lead with the rest of your army anyway.

As an endgame figure, I found she played like Kaemon Awa lite, throwing a decent attack from normal range, with a threat of multiple kills at close range. I found Swaysil had the ablity to earn back her points if the board was left in advantageous state. Having a threat range of 14 (6 range + 8 Move) meant even on large maps she was never too far from a potential target. When facing the remnants of a Kurrok-less elemental army Swaysil was able to take out 3 elementals on her own after a notably risky fire elemental run down. Melee squads where a favorite prey for the archer, having a strong endgame runs against Greenscales and Heavy Gruts. Unsurprisingly she can fall quickly to repeated ranged fire, being quickly mowed down by a line of 4th Mass or the suprisingly fast Gorillanators. I really enjoyed moments where Swaysil was squaring off other low cost heroes such as Ninja, Monks or Cowboys and after getting the upper hand from range, charged in for the kill. This often felt like the Centaur was making her last stand, which tied back into her theme. Much like any other unit, there were times Swaysil underperformed, however she always offered hope for a comeback which makes for great endgames.

One of the most interesting parts of Swaysil’s playstyle is how she can challenge an opponent to bait the Centaur while trying to run her down. With fewer figures on the board Run Down followed by Point Bank Shot can be a real deterrent to aggressive play. You have to be mindful that you don’t leave squad figures, especially melee squad figure open to such an attack. Careful figure placement is key, while trying to corral the centaur into a threat range.

Summary - Making a case to draft a standalone hero like Swaysil who is best suited as an endgame figure, when options like the Marro Warriors and even Me-Burq-Sa exist, is tough but not impossible. Swaysil is not in danger of outclassing any existing figures and is just enough of a Jack of all trades, that she may find her place within an otherwise well-crafted army.

I vote to induct Swaysil into the SoV.


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  #7268  
Old May 31st, 2021, 12:25 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex View Post
Re-Submission

Here is the tune up from a few weeks ago. I think this iteration fits in more with the expectations of Hunters, with 2 man squads and provides a bit different of a playstyle.

It doesn't create a wall of no hitzones anymore and it doesn't touch the thought space of "Hunters Heroes" anymore. Nothing has changed in their leftbox or their bio (not that the bio matters). Some people have brought up similarities to Beakface Sneaks as a 2 man peer, I'd like to point out that Evasive is distinctly different than Stealthy in what it communicates as a power in both function and theme (props to Preyblood Thrall btw, it's a fun unit).

THE HUNT, is the name I finally settled on for their main power. It differs from the 2 powers it is inspired from in current scape because it is 1. tribal, 2. has specific requirements that communicate a generalized theme, 3. sets the unit up to like being "unengaged" to get perks and aggressive on the play.

Let me know what you think of the latest iteration. I think I have addressed all the previous concerns about fun/unfun gameplay.


WULFLING HUNTERS

GENERAL = ULLAR
PLANET = FEYLUND
SPECIES = WULFLING
UNIQUENESS = COMMON SQUAD
CLASS = HUNTERS
PERSONALITY = FEARSOME
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 1

MOVE = 6
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 3
DEFENSE = 3
POINTS = 50

THE HUNT
After revealing an Order Marker on this Army Card, if the Wulfling Hunters wounded an enemy figure then you may take an additional turn with a Wulfling Army Card that you control. All figures taking a turn with THE HUNT must be unengaged at the start of their turn.

STEALTHY 3
When an unengaged Wulfling Hunter is attacked with a normal or special attack, add 3 defense dice to the defending Wulfling Hunter.

https://www.heroscapers.com/communit...ng_hunters.jpg
I'm going to vote to review, but I will air my two concerns here, Since both are game play related and you cannot always theoryscape those.

1. Hunters and the Hunt. The theme presented is that these guys are hunters. The hunt implys that when something bleeds or yells when wounded it attracts other Hunters to join in. This is a classic Scout/Hunter trope and is perfect for heroscape. However if they play like, cool you killed something on the far right and now can attack on the far left, or pull reinforcements from all the way back in the start zone, it will feel more like a cheat then a hunt.

2. Special Attacks should be special. I'm not a fan of getting around special attacks just because, but again this will be noticeable in testing, since having this buff should come with a cost increase.


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  #7269  
Old May 31st, 2021, 03:22 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex View Post
THE HUNT
After revealing an Order Marker on this Army Card, if the Wulfling Hunters wounded an enemy figure then you may take an additional turn with a Wulfling Army Card that you control. All figures taking a turn with THE HUNT must be unengaged at the start of their turn.
Is this supposed to be limited to one additional turn no matter what or is it supposed to be every time you wound an enemy, you can take another turn?

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  #7270  
Old May 31st, 2021, 03:35 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I think the OM phrase is supposed to limit it to once.

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  #7271  
Old May 31st, 2021, 06:33 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

It's not worded correctly either way so I'm trying to find out the intent.

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  #7272  
Old May 31st, 2021, 07:23 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I ran it past Scytale and it's been shown in the pre-sov thread for a few months at this point... Yes, it's one additional turn and doesnt create infinite loops.

How is it not worded correctly?
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