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  #109  
Old November 8th, 2020, 06:47 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Design

Alright, I'm calling the vote - we're in public feedback. @flameslayer93 change the thread title please?
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Old November 8th, 2020, 08:43 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Design

It is time to welcome public feedback on this thread! We're always open to feedback, but this is when we specifically are asking you for your opinion on a unit! We're interested in getting outsider thoughts on the unit in the main post of this thread so that we can catch any potential errors and make the most polished units possible.

We do ask that all commenters keep in mind the core goals of the AotV project when giving their feedback. For reference, they are:

Quote:
1. To be compatible with Classic/Official Heroscape, and completely VC-compliant: that is, designing with C3V and SoV figures in mind, and focusing on the AOTP figures that would be acceptable to SoV (figures that are pre-painted or usable without paint).

2. To provide an affordable and user-friendly entry point to both new and returning players, that captures the feel of a true Master Set.

3. To create balanced units that are relatively simple, easy to understand, and feel at home in a self-contained set together. Units will come from a wide range of themes, and capture the diversity of theme Heroscape is beloved for.

These tenants of the project are important cornerstones for each design. Although other units can be very complex or otherwise rely on other units that they were not packaged with, that is not within the scope of this project.

Each unit should be interesting when compared only against the rest of AotV; they should still be exciting when taken out of the box, but we are assuming that this is an entry-level product for the game. Think of the original Rise of the Valkyrie Master Set, before any expansions were added, and when all of the units were just standalone unique characters.

That said, we welcome your feedback now, and we'd love to hear what you think about this unit! The Public Feedback Phase in this thread will end on 11/22/20, unless otherwise noted.
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  #111  
Old November 11th, 2020, 02:47 AM
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Design

For me, I think being Carried by Waves should thematically work no more than 1 or 2 levels higher than her base. For sure less than her height of 5. Water travels downhill so I'm good with more spaces at lower levels. For example, the GIE only freezes what it's standing on (same level), and RTS slimes everything her shoulders rub against (5 levels higher compared to height of 6) plus the ooze runs downhill as well.

So, like:

CARRIED BY WAVES
All land spaces within 1 space of Durnipia that are no more than 2 levels above or 5 levels below Durnipia's base are considered water spaces. Durnipia and friendly figures who start their move adjacent to Durnipia do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space.

I like where you all have taken this figure. I think I'll try to run a game with her tonight!

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  #112  
Old November 11th, 2020, 11:06 AM
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strack9 View Post
For me, I think being Carried by Waves should thematically work no more than 1 or 2 levels higher than her base. For sure less than her height of 5. Water travels downhill so I'm good with more spaces at lower levels. For example, the GIE only freezes what it's standing on (same level), and RTS slimes everything her shoulders rub against (5 levels higher compared to height of 6) plus the ooze runs downhill as well.

So, like:

CARRIED BY WAVES
All land spaces within 1 space of Durnipia that are no more than 2 levels above or 5 levels below Durnipia's base are considered water spaces. Durnipia and friendly figures who start their move adjacent to Durnipia do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space.

I like where you all have taken this figure. I think I'll try to run a game with her tonight!
I like this suggestion. The only reason I proposed 5 spaces initially was because I was basing the power as much as possible off of the precedent set by Re Tak Shi, but I don't see any mechanical reason why changing the number of levels above her base that she affects would be a bad idea. I also agree that it would help to convey the theme a little better.
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  #113  
Old November 12th, 2020, 04:50 AM
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb

So I soloed a 500 pt. Durnipea vs. Durnipea match yesterday on the Sidewinder map.

Durnipea 80
Valguard 110
Dreadgul Raiders x4 260
Guilty 30
Marcu 20

Vs.

Durnipea 80
Microcorp Agents x3 300
Fen Hydra 120


My Thought with the former was just put Valguard and Durnipea together for fun and see if there were any unexpected times when Durnipia felt worth the order marker.

The thought with the latter was to make her the centerpiece of the army; Survivability for the Microcorp A’s and healing where it’s most appreciated: the hydra.


Spoiler Alert!



Thoughts: Durnipia with Valgard was responsible for about 15 extra movements but wasn’t ever worth an order marker. Even if Valgard and Guilty had been injured I think it would have been tough keeping her close in an (almost) all melee army, and I definitely wouldn’t have liked giving up height with either one of them to go down to the river to be baptized.

Durnipea with the Agents of Hydra (All hail Hydra!) also granted 15 extra moves and got the Agents some great high spots within range to be bolstered. She also had the potential to do some healing if I had played better or if the Hydra’s luck would have been better. She did manage to help some water-specialized figures but any aggro that would have gone their way was easy to turn on her instead since she was so close, and with a better chance to hit. Maybe I got an extra attack or two from a primed Agent out of the deal, but I would have gotten 3 extra attacks had I put her order marker on them instead.

Final thoughts: I did get some of her points back out of the movement augmentation. Raelin would have done the same protection job from a safer distance and Kelda would have been able to reach the Hydra and almost surely healed something without as much finagling, but neither could have potentially done both. However, it’s going to be quite a specialized build that wants to do both. I didn’t really explore her potential to gum up a choke point yet but for 80 points, Rats x2 are going to be better at that. What sets her apart from the other healers currently, is her ability to heal multiple Heroes (and herself) at the same time so maybe with the Lawmen or a Laglor ranged pod. I think if I’d want to take her over Kelda, though, I’d like to see the heal chance go up. Right now I’d rather take one 95% chance to heal than two or three 30% chances . . .

. . . I’m gonna try some other armies out so I can develop my thoughts more

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  #114  
Old November 20th, 2020, 06:14 AM
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb

I hope I'm not being overenthusiastic to what is being hoped for from public feedback, but I have more thoughts so I'll post them. If I'm overstepping then please ignore anything that is too much.

I know the healing dial is a moving target, but I want to make a case for it starting at a roll of 6-20.

First there’s the feel of it.
For the major healers of ClasicScape, Rhogar starts healing at 6 and Kelda starts to level up at 6.
Secondly there’s the question of if it’s too powerful inserted into VC.
Is it too powerful for 1 army?
Despite being technically able to heal 61 wounded heroes who are all on a map made entirely of water, the reality is that she will rarely get a chance to even double heal. Most times the Aura of 4 while on water is just for flavor since water is usually one of the most disadvantageous spaces on the map, so mostly she’s healing wounded heroes who are adjacent. And even if you had a Re-Tak-Shi/Othqurik combo going where you had multiple heroes reliably on water, the opponent could just pick them off one at a time. But just for hypothetical’s sake, say you had a clump of high defense heroes that your opponent wanted to whittle down evenly like the Wildwoods. I don’t think it would be an insurmountable challenge for most matchups. (I tried surrounding her with the Monarch, 3 Sentinels and 2 Runners to see if I could keep healing a wall around her against 3 consistent attacks of 3 (PK’s X8 ) on even ground, and broke even after 6 tries)
Is it too powerful in a team battle?
It might depend on how many teams, but my gut feeling is that you would have to work extremely hard with singular purpose to abuse this power by healing too many people.
Is it too powerful for Durnipia to heal herself?
Cyprien and Sonlen pay a premium for their abilities to attack and possibly heal themselves in the process, but they have good attacks and chances to multi attack even. The Ice troll, who's close in price, has a better attack, a better chance to heal, and bonds. If Durnipea's going to dabble in a clean-up roll, her mitigating factor is her absolutely average stats. Her regeneration gives her some usefulness if she's the last one left, but certainly not remotely overpowered. (actually I think a "6-20" Durnipia vs. an Ice Troll Berserker would be a pretty close matchup)
Thirdly, will it be fun to play with the rest of the master set it comes in.
There’s a lot of heroes in the AotP set and not so much water on the cardboard map pieces that the enjoyment is going to come primarily from helping her team jump across rivers. Maybe her water making power will interact with Jace somehow, but if you’re bringing her to be a healer, to me it would feel more fun for her to heal more reliably, especially if it’s only for 1 point at a time.

On being a Rusalka and a Nymph:
I have less pause at her being a Nymph than a Rusalka, but I don't think she should be both. At least not for her class. Rusalka is my least favorite for this sculpt.
I'm not against a Nymph per se, but personally, I’d prefer something more general/universal like a Merfolk. Einar gives me more of an impression of being Imperial or Regal or Bold. Nymphs seem more flighty/aloof. Merfolk can be interpreted in all kinds of different ways, from mythologies to D&D to MtG. IMHO It gives a wider chance to possibly mesh with a future Merfolk that might have a different sculpt-type.

In her armor, with her staff, I see Durnipia as the Queen or a General of the Merfolk of the seas of Feylund who were perhaps disdainful of the realms of land until the Doomstone fell into the hands of evil at the battle of the Nine Wizards, forcing all kingdoms of Feylund to ally together, or perish.

Maybe she’s a Warlord even; Brought by Einar not only for her ability to sustain his armies, but to lead his legions across the Rubicons of Valhalla. There are more synergy combos to think about if you go down that road (although she herself can never go down any roads since she washes them out ).
What if her 4 space sphere of influence over water, was for both her healing ability and her gift of slither:
CARRIED BY WAVES
All land spaces within 1 space of Durnipia that are no more than 2 levels above or 5 levels below Durnipia's base are considered water spaces. Durnipia and friendly figures who start their move on a water space within four clear sight spaces of Durnipia do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space.

Effectively not too different but slightly more useful in maps that have start-zones with water/swamp-water. Your figures still have to plant themselves in water first to cross water later.
Finally, I think the wording for Healing Waters should more closely resemble other healers:
HEALING WATERS
After taking a turn with Durnipia, you may roll the d20 for each friendly wounded hero within four clear sight spaces on a water space. If you roll a 6 or higher, remove a wound from that figure's army card.
[/Thoughts]

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Last edited by Strack9; November 20th, 2020 at 06:26 AM. Reason: Grammar
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  #115  
Old November 20th, 2020, 11:57 AM
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb

@Strack9 Thanks so much for your playtest and in depth feedback! I can't speak for all of the pod members here, but personally your most recent post is exactly the kind of engagement and feedback I was hoping for, so thank you!

First, I like your proposed wording for Healing Waters to bring things more in line with the other healers and would suggest adopting it.

I also can definitely see how Healing Waters could be underwhelming in practice. Lowering the target number is an obvious solution to that, and I'm definitely open to exploring that direction. 6+ seems a little low to me, but I think its worth considering.

An alternate possibility would be to borrow a page from Marro Warriors and make Healing Waters affect everyone within 4 spaces, and then just give a boost to the roll if they're on a water space. Something like this was suggested very early in the thread, but never in a form that could heal multiple heroes, which I think is an interesting feature of the current design. It would end up looking something like this:

Quote:
HEALING WATERS V2
After taking a turn with Durnipia, you may roll the d20 for each other friendly wounded hero within four clear sight spaces. If you roll a 15 or higher, remove a wound from that figure's army card. If that figure is on a water space, add 5 to your roll.
This version is strictly better than the current draft, which I'm okay with if the current version proves to be underwhelming in practice. I'd also be okay with raising Durnipia's price point higher than 80; in some ways I'd prefer it actually, if only to distinguish her more from Kelda.

I also think that the concerns about the pairing of Rusalka and Nymph are justified. Personally I lean slightly toward using Nymph as a species over Merfolk, mainly because Merfolk is already an established D&D species. Since D&D lore is technically canon within heroscape, I could see how making her a merfolk might mean that we'd have to make her consistent with the attributes of D&D merfolk.

I think I'd prefer the Nymph species and just Healer class, although I'd be open to exploring a more "regal" direction for her as well. Another potential option for species that's already been used before is "Sidhe" which is the species of the c3v Eilan Sidhe. Google defines "Sidhe" as
Quote:
the fairy people of Irish folklore, said to live beneath the hills and often identified as the remnant of the ancient Tuatha Dé Danann.
. I think I'd still slightly prefer Nymph over Sidhe, but wanted to mention it, especially since there's precedent for it.

I'm less convinced that expanding the range for Carried By Waves to a 4 space radius is necessary? It also strikes me as just slightly less thematic, since the terraforming part of the ability only affects spaces next to her.

Anyway, thanks again for your feedback and the playtest. It's SUPER helpful and exciting to get input from people outside the pod itself
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  #116  
Old November 21st, 2020, 02:42 AM
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Stupendous View Post
I also can definitely see how Healing Waters could be underwhelming in practice. Lowering the target number is an obvious solution to that, and I'm definitely open to exploring that direction. 6+ seems a little low to me, but I think its worth considering.
I'm sure play-testing will bear out an appropriate number.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Stupendous View Post
An alternate possibility would be to borrow a page from Marro Warriors and make Healing Waters affect everyone within 4 spaces, and then just give a boost to the roll if they're on a water space. Something like this was suggested very early in the thread, but never in a form that could heal multiple heroes, which I think is an interesting feature of the current design. It would end up looking something like this:

Quote:
HEALING WATERS V2
After taking a turn with Durnipia, you may roll the d20 for each other friendly wounded hero within four clear sight spaces. If you roll a 15 or higher, remove a wound from that figure's army card. If that figure is on a water space, add 5 to your roll.
FWIW, Adding the word "other" prevents her from healing herself which I think is also an interesting feature of the current design. It gives her a little something to do once all the heroes to heal are gone.

V2 seems alright to me too. I'm not sure how I feel yet. I suspect the usefulness of covering 61 spaces with healing potential will drive the to-hit numbers up on principle, but that in practice the 1 or 2 heroes able to have been healed, could have been gotten adjacent to and would have valued a higher % chance to be healed that the power night have offered if it were more restrictive who it could target.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Stupendous View Post
I'd also be okay with raising Durnipia's price point higher than 80; in some ways I'd prefer it actually, if only to distinguish her more from Kelda.
In any case, if someone comes up with a situation or tactic that makes it too powerful for a reliable multi-heal, another aspect that could be dampened would be to restrict it to a max of 2. Kelda heals 1 hero, 2 hit-points reliably (maybe all the way). Durnipia heals 2 heroes, 1 hit-point reliably.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Stupendous View Post
I also think that the concerns about the pairing of Rusalka and Nymph are justified. Personally I lean slightly toward using Nymph as a species over Merfolk, mainly because Merfolk is already an established D&D species. Since D&D lore is technically canon within heroscape, I could see how making her a merfolk might mean that we'd have to make her consistent with the attributes of D&D merfolk.
Not necessarily. The crossovers of general species between universes are already present. You’ve got Dragons from Icaria and Toril, Dwarves from Eberon and Feylund. Elves, Giants, Ogres from different planets. The Orcs from Grut are blue and bald, while the Orcs from Toril are Black and harry. Perhaps the Merfolk from Feylund are pipedal like the ones from MtG. You'd only have to make her consistent with the attributes of D&D if she comes from Toril or Eberon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Stupendous View Post
I think I'd prefer the Nymph species and just Healer class, although I'd be open to exploring a more "regal" direction for her as well. Another potential option for species that's already been used before is "Sidhe" which is the species of the c3v Eilan Sidhe. Google defines "Sidhe" as
Quote:
the fairy people of Irish folklore, said to live beneath the hills and often identified as the remnant of the ancient Tuatha Dé Danann.
. I think I'd still slightly prefer Nymph over Sidhe, but wanted to mention it, especially since there's precedent for it.
Nymph or Sidhe are fine choices and I’d be happy seeing either of those or whatever else. Merfolk is just where I ended up in my own mind, trying to come up with an Einar-like back story for her appearance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Stupendous View Post
I'm less convinced that expanding the range for Carried By Waves to a 4 space radius is necessary? It also strikes me as just slightly less thematic, since the terraforming part of the ability only affects spaces next to her.
I agree. It's not necessary at all, and my thematics are subjective. I was just putting my musing to text "if she can heal with the water 4 spaces away, maybe it's because she can control all the water around her, and if so, maybe she can surge people forward with that water in addition to the water next to her". It wouldn't have made any difference in any of the maps I play-tested on since none of them had a second water barrier to cross if you landed in the first one.

On the other side of the thematics coin, I think it would also make sense, and she'd still be useful, if she could only heal heroes that were adjacent to her since that's where the water she brought with her is.

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  #117  
Old November 23rd, 2020, 02:51 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb

Wow, thank you for all the feedback, Strack!

I'm okay with Nymph, and I think those are good ideas. I'd be fine with a radius difference between her heal and her terraform, with a Marro-like bonus for those on water. The slither stretching 4 spaces seems like a lot?


Going to extend the public feedback for a week or so.
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