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C3G Legacy Library This is the archive for all the designs released in the original era of C3G. Feel free to post any figure specific questions in their individual books.

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  #433  
Old December 2nd, 2016, 01:26 PM
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Re: The Book of The Crow

I personally would like to try to come up with something LP will accept(though I am not sure how to go about it).

I see no reason to rush this since it has sat in limbo for so long.

If need be, I say put it on hold and we will try again later.

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  #434  
Old December 2nd, 2016, 01:35 PM
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Re: The Book of The Crow

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Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
I personally would like to try to come up with something LP will accept(though I am not sure how to go about it).
If he, you, or anyone else has any suggestions that A) are balanced, B) LP likes, and C) please everyone, I'm open to them.

I'd rather not wait a whole lot longer either. There are only a couple more figures in the reevaluation queue and I for one would like to finish them up.

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  #435  
Old December 2nd, 2016, 01:46 PM
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Re: The Book of The Crow

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Originally Posted by TrollBrute View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
I personally would like to try to come up with something LP will accept(though I am not sure how to go about it).
If he, you, or anyone else has any suggestions that A) are balanced, B) LP likes, and C) please everyone, I'm open to them.

I'd rather not wait a whole lot longer either. There are only a couple more figures in the reevaluation queue and I for one would like to finish them up.
Okay, based on the fact I'm only really seeing two criticisms from LP, why don't we just go with dok's suggestion and remove them?
NAME = THE CROW
SECRET IDENTITY = ERIC DRAVEN


SPECIES = UNDEAD
UNIQUENESS = EVENT HERO
CLASS = REVENANT
PERSONALITY = VENGEFUL

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5


LIFE = 5

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 5
ATTACK = 3
DEFENSE = 4

POINTS = 190


SET THE WRONG THINGS RIGHT
At the start of the game, place a Vengeance/Crow Marker on up to 2 Unique Army Cards your opponent controls. [cut] Any figure with your Vengeance Marker on its Army Card rolls 2 fewer defense dice when attacked by the Crow.

LIVE FOR VENGEANCE
While your Crow Marker is on another card belonging to another figure on the battlefied, if The Crow would receive one or more wounds, ignore one of those wounds. [cut]

DOUBLE ATTACK
When The Crow attacks, he may attack one additional time.
That nicely simplifies the card as well, and hits all the balance and theme notes I feel are really necessary (plus I've never thought forcing him to attack his target was necessary as long as there's enough incentive, which there isn't on the present card, unfortunately). What do you think, @Lord Pyre ?


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  #436  
Old December 2nd, 2016, 02:00 PM
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Re: The Book of The Crow

That still has two markers?
LP will not go for that. The marker is the crow.

So you would need to allow the marker to move or only use it once.

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  #437  
Old December 2nd, 2016, 02:04 PM
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Re: The Book of The Crow

I believe Psycho-Man is the only other figure left in the queue, and there's already a consensus on a very simple starting point for re-eval there (make Hate not distinguish between friend and foe). I've considered suggesting we jump over to P-Man and bang him out before circling back here. It would be nice to not leave him hanging too long, but at the same time it's not like The Crow is going away.

I am still not clear if LP (or some others who have criticized the first excised sentence in L_O's version there) were aware that The Crow was allowed to attack other figures in my version; he just had to attack a marked figure if one was a targetable option when attacking.

I'd be OK with L_O version. The main rationale for the forced attack was to keep the Crow from avoiding attacking the last marked figure because he wants to stay on the battlefield. If you're removing the departure from the battlefield, then the Crow is less likely to avoid attacking that figure. Although losing the resilience power is still a penalty, so maybe not.

In case it's not obvious, I think that both the thirst for vengeance implied by the required targeting, and the returning to rest when vengeance is complete, help reinforce the theme of the character. I am concerned that that stripped down version is a bit too generic - it almost feels like Kraven or Lobo, to me. Those negative aspects of the design also allow us to keep the price down and avoid further stat nerfs.

But it's looking unlikely that anyone is going to get everything they want here, so I do want to register my support for that design, even if I'm less excited by it.
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  #438  
Old December 2nd, 2016, 02:11 PM
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Re: The Book of The Crow

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Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
That still has two markers?
LP will not go for that. The marker is the crow.

So you would need to allow the marker to move or only use it once.
As I said earlier, I'd be happy to call the marker a crow marker even if there are multiples. Given that it only lowers defense when The Crow is attacking the figure, it can still represent one actual Crow. It's just that these are the figures that the spirit crow is helping Draven to kill. Whenever Draven attacks one of them, the crow is flying around them and pestering them.

(In the actual story, Eric Draven goes after all those thugs, one after the other, despite none of them killing additional people during the course of the story. Also, even if we have just one marker, it's affecting multiple figures if we allow it to be placed on a unique squad.)

I brought this up in response to LP's initial objection, but as with my correction on the targeting thing, LP has not responded to it. LP is not currently very active and has stated "do what you need to do". It's clear he's not happy with any of the changes being discussed here, but he hasn't really engaged in this discussion and he's made it clear that he doesn't want to stand in the way of the process. If he comes around and starts to become active in addressing the concerns of the re-eval, that's great, but at this point I'm not sure I see the point of trying to pass things by him.
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  #439  
Old December 2nd, 2016, 04:30 PM
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Re: The Book of The Crow

It is less about passing it by LP and more about ensuring we have have tried every option.

Perhaps switching gears to P-M is a good idea and we can come back to Crow.
If nothing better has been proposed by then, I will have no problem going along with the majority.

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  #440  
Old December 2nd, 2016, 06:48 PM
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Re: The Book of The Crow

I support either the version TB posted or the version Orang posted, with a slight preference towards Orang's version (since it's simpler and I believe is closer to what LP wanted).

I for one would like to see the Crow get worked out now instead of setting aside the discussion again.

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  #441  
Old December 2nd, 2016, 06:54 PM
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Re: The Book of The Crow

LP wants the marker to represent The Crow. Adding his suggestion to LO's proposal:
NAME = THE CROW
SECRET IDENTITY = ERIC DRAVEN


SPECIES = UNDEAD
UNIQUENESS = EVENT HERO
CLASS = REVENANT
PERSONALITY = VENGEFUL

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5


LIFE = 5

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 5
ATTACK = 3
DEFENSE = 4

POINTS = 190


SET THE WRONG THINGS RIGHT
At the start of the game, place a Vengeance/Crow Marker on up to 2 1 Unique Army Cards your opponent controls. [cut] Any figure with your Vengeance Crow Marker on its Army Card rolls 2 fewer defense dice when attacked by the Crow. If a figure from the card with your Crow Marker on it is removed from the battlefield or receives one or more wounds from a normal or special attack, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 5 or lower, remove your Crow Marker from the game. If you roll 6 or higher, place your Crow Marker on this card.

LIVE FOR VENGEANCE
While your Crow Marker is on another card belonging to another figure on the battlefied, if The Crow would receive one or more wounds, ignore one of those wounds. [cut]

DOUBLE ATTACK
When The Crow attacks, he may attack one additional time.

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  #442  
Old December 2nd, 2016, 07:12 PM
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Re: The Book of The Crow

There's no reason to include all that complexity with the d20 and the removal if there's no way for the Crow marker to be placed on a new card. The version you just posted would have the Crow marker lasting for one wound, then disappearing and never coming back no matter what you roll. There's literally zero difference between rolling a 2 and rolling a 20 in that power.

And as I and others have repeatedly pointed out, there's nothing inconsistent about using multiple markers to represent the singular crow that is flying around, helping Eric Draven out. In fact, if you put it on a card of a unique squad, it's already affecting multiple figures. If LP wants to address this point, then he's welcome to do so, but I don't think we should regard his initial comment on multiple markers as a red line that cannot be crossed, particularly since he's said we should do what we need to do.

Frankly, it's getting frustrating to have any progress we make here repeatedly shut down because of a few comments by someone who has not provided a viable alternative and who has plainly stated that he's not going to participate in this process. I understand the desire to defer to the lead's wishes, but we should not defer to a lead who has declined the opportunity to actually lead.

Last edited by dok; December 2nd, 2016 at 07:24 PM. Reason: To be clear, if LP doesn't want to work on this that's fine. Let's just not pretend that he does.
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  #443  
Old December 2nd, 2016, 08:42 PM
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Re: The Book of The Crow

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
I understand the desire to defer to the lead's wishes, but we should not defer to a lead who has declined the opportunity to actually lead.
I largely agree with this. I prefer to stick to as closely as possible to the LD's intent/desires as possible, but that only goes so far. We've already had plenty of reevals already where the original LD is no longer active on the site and is not a part of the process. I would love to work with LP on this design if he is an active and engaged part of the discussion. But I know things are very busy for him and he doesn't have much time to devote to this so I'm not sure that will happen. In the meantime, I don't feel that we should be hampered by an LD who is not a participating member of the discussion.

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  #444  
Old December 2nd, 2016, 09:02 PM
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Re: The Book of The Crow

Maybe he feels frustrated because you are redesigning the card instead of making minor adjustments.

Quote:
NAME = THE CROW
SECRET IDENTITY = ERIC DRAVEN

SPECIES = UNDEAD
UNIQUENESS = EVENT HERO
CLASS = REVENANT
PERSONALITY = VENGEFUL

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 5

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 5
ATTACK = 3
DEFENSE = 4

POINTS = 190

LIVE FOR VENGEANCE
At the start of the game, choose an opponent's Unique Hero that is not The Crow and place the black Crow Marker on the chosen figure's card. While your Crow Marker is on another Army Card, that figure rolls one fewer defense die and if The Crow would receive one or more wounds, ignore one of those wounds. If the figure with your Crow Marker on its card is removed from the battlefield or receives one or more wounds from a normal or special attack, place your Crow Marker on this card.

SET THE WRONG THINGS RIGHT
If the Crow Marker is on this card and any other figure you control is attacked and destroyed by an opponent’s Unique Hero that is not The Crow, you may place the Crow Marker on the attacking Hero's Army Card.

DOUBLE ATTACK
When The Crow attacks, he may attack one additional time.
The things in bold are the only things I changed. Is this acceptable to anyone?

If not, would adding this to the end of LIVE FOR VENGEANCE instead of "place your Crow Marker on this card" help?

"roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 5 or lower, remove your Crow Marker from the game. If you roll 6 or higher, place your Crow Marker on this card."

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Last edited by quozl; December 2nd, 2016 at 09:57 PM.
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