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C3G Library This area collects all the released designs. Feel free to post any figure specific questions in their individual books.


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  #109  
Old January 4th, 2020, 09:19 PM
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Re: The Book of X-O Manowar (VOTE for Final Editing)

yea at 370-380
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  #110  
Old January 7th, 2020, 08:36 PM
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Re: The Book of X-O Manowar (VOTE for Final Editing)

72 hours and one vote - it's been a fairly rocky design, but it's also been a pretty slow season, so I could see it being either. Any honest opinions again this direction or, alternatively, anyone willing to give it a look over and a stamp of approval?
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  #111  
Old January 7th, 2020, 09:46 PM
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Re: The Book of X-O Manowar (VOTE for Final Editing)

Whoops, thought I voted here. yea


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  #112  
Old January 7th, 2020, 10:12 PM
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Re: The Book of X-O Manowar (VOTE for Final Editing)

Tried to read through your summary on the last page. Seems like he's gone through a lot of changes. Maybe too many moving parts for me to follow just now, sorry. I'd give a vode of confidence yea, but japes has discouraged those, so how about a move things along abstain?

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  #113  
Old January 8th, 2020, 11:13 AM
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Re: The Book of X-O Manowar (VOTE for Final Editing)

Sorry totally forgot about this vote!

Basically my thought is that I'm worried in a month or two you're going to look back at this guy and regret it. I really feel like you're not satisfied here, but you just want to move forward. He's looking balanced, sure, so I'm fine moving ahead if you are. But I know he's a big deal as a character so if you're not 100% happy, should we move forward?
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  #114  
Old January 8th, 2020, 12:46 PM
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Re: The Book of X-O Manowar (VOTE for Final Editing)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Pyre View Post
Sorry totally forgot about this vote!

Basically my thought is that I'm worried in a month or two you're going to look back at this guy and regret it. I really feel like you're not satisfied here, but you just want to move forward. He's looking balanced, sure, so I'm fine moving ahead if you are. But I know he's a big deal as a character so if you're not 100% happy, should we move forward?
I'll admit I'm waffling a bit here because I do really like the design on paper and on the board. But I don't think it's a perfect fit for Aric, it's more of a "squint a little and it works" design. I don't think it's, like, a Wolverine or a Flash or one of those cards I look at and say: wow, they really nailed it!

But my thoughts are - he's practically done, we have a lot of testing done, and I'm not sure there's a way to get that "really nailed it" design without starting from scratch.

So that leaves us with two options: scrap this one completely, put together a new design, and get to it eventually. Or, finish this one up, keep an X-O 2.0 (bigger, badder, less swingy, more Superman) in mind for the future. It's going to he the same amount of additional work either way.

TLDR: I think it's a good design, and an okay fit for Aric. We've done better, we've done worse. But if the work is already done, I don't want the perfect to be the enemy of the good, so I'd rather have an okay Aric out there than none at all.
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  #115  
Old January 8th, 2020, 12:52 PM
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Re: The Book of X-O Manowar (VOTE for Final Editing)

I don't know, is a "sub-par" design better than nothing at all? I know that we haven't been perfect thematically on every single design, but it's worth discussing.

Take Lady Death for example. She went through testing on her original version, and it sucked wasting that work but I wasn't feeling it either. The character has a jillion powers and I was focusing on the not-interesting ones. So instead we focused on her attitude first and foremost, and I have room to make a crazy necromancer witch version in the future if I want to. But at least I'm happy with the current one, even if I never get to a second (Which honestly have no plans to). It really captures her character even if not all her powers.

Basically I don't want to make a design that's okay, with the expectation that a cooler one will come later. Especially for Indy designs.

Maybe all he needs is a little tweak or so, anyway? If it's okay, and you're not in a rush, lets really focus in on the problems. What's working and what's iffy?
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  #116  
Old January 8th, 2020, 01:10 PM
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Re: The Book of X-O Manowar (VOTE for Final Editing)

I'd say either way maybe move Bloodshot to testing while we maybe revamp? I'd call him more a necessity for the SSE than XO is, especially with Aric being more of a part-time member. Indy stuff really doesn't get a round 2, so I'd rather see Aric-less Unity now with an expansion later, than a not good Aric quickly.
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  #117  
Old January 8th, 2020, 01:15 PM
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Re: The Book of X-O Manowar (VOTE for Final Editing)

Sure - so here's what I think is iffy about him. He has three powers. First one, with the X-O Markers is fine.

The other two, though, have sort of a power imbalance. The first gives multiattacks (good) and is risky (good). The second dishes out auto-wounds (good) and is defensive/encourages Aric as the center of attention (also good).

The problem is, the risk involved in the second is pretty huge for a figure at his price point, and the second is major value. They mix up his priorities. If we stripped him down to the "just what works" we're left with no marker power, higher base stats, and something like this:

SHEER FORCE
After attacking an adjacent figure with Aric, if he did not inflict a wound, you may attack again, up to a maximum of 3 attacks per turn.

RIGHTEOUS RAGE
Once per round, when a friendly Unique Hero is destroyed by an attack, if X-O Manowar is within 5 clear sight spaces of the attacking figure, you may roll an unblockable attack dice against that figure.

Which gets rid of the risk in the first power, makes the second weaker. It's a streamlined design, but without the risk inherent in his multi-attacks, he just sort of turns into a beat stick that you pump up with Star-Lord or Cap, which I don't think is right either.

I don't think I really like Sheer Force for Aric without the risk-reward dynamic, but I have trouble figuring a way to do that without making him a pure kamikaze unit, which is equally wrong. And that just leaves him with a nerfed Righteous Rage - not the most fertile ground to work with.

There might be a sweet spot we can find where the "fall back" half is weaker and the "charge in" half is stronger, but I'm worried we'd just end up a dog chasing cars there.

EDIT:Either way, I agree with LV - I think we're either set on what we have here, or will be doing a major overhaul with a new Initial and everything. I'll close playtesting and move to a "final editing and/or redraft" stage or whatever we want to ca it. Bloodshot should be significantly smoother.
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  #118  
Old January 8th, 2020, 01:32 PM
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Re: The Book of X-O Manowar (VOTE for Final Editing)

Are the markers thematic? I know in the case of Lanterns they represent their "charge." I don't know the power this guys has in comics, so hard for me to comment. But it seems like the disconnect is trying to tie the markers into both powers. We could totally streamline it like you said, keeping a risk factor:
Quote:
SHEER FORCE
After attacking an adjacent figure with Aric, if he did not inflict a wound, you must attack again, up to a maximum of 3 attacks per turn. If X-O attacks 3 times in a single turn, place a wound marker on this card.

RIGHTEOUS RAGE
Once per round, when a friendly Unique Hero is destroyed by an attack, if X-O Manowar is within 5 clear sight spaces of the attacking figure, you may roll an unblockable attack dice against that figure.
Obviously it's a pretty empty card then, but you could have some other sort of armor effect not tied to GL markers. But Not knowing the theme I can't suggest anything. Something else fun would be to add to the Sheer Force edit I made above:
If X-O attacks 3 times in a single turn, deal an unblockable wound to X-O and all figures adjacent to X-O.


I do agree that focusing on Bloodshot in the meantime is probably the best option!
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  #119  
Old January 8th, 2020, 01:39 PM
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Re: The Book of X-O Manowar (VOTE for Final Editing)

The more I think about it, the more I think he's too early Aric, and not lunchbox Aric. First two volumes of XO, yeah this is fairly spot on. But he does get more controlled and steps into more of a leadership role as time goes on. This version doesn't really have that control, as most of his powers aren't under the players control.

This is the Aric that Unity went after in book one, not the Aric they teamed up with. I think "Aric has anger issues" is important, but I think it might be hogging too much of the design here.
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  #120  
Old January 8th, 2020, 01:54 PM
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Re: The Book of X-O Manowar (VOTE for Final Editing)

I second the idea that it’s probably smart to let him simmer a bit and throw Bloodshot on the stove.

I can’t remember if it’s been discussed before, but why not just limit Sheer Force to 1 additional attack? I know it loses some of the “head against a wall” theme, but it would still capture the feel I think, and would stop him from just blowing all the markers in one attack.

I don’t know the character, but maybe just rebranding Righteous Rage into something like Righteous Retribution could make him feel less angry?
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