Marvel custom philosophy

[badgermaniac]

One of the elements that characterized the rise of the Marvel age was the notion that the characters were flawed. Instead of having characters like Superman or the early Captain America and all of their grand nobility, we had characters like the X-Men that were misfits misunderstood by society, Iron Man with a bad heart and later a drinking problem, Spider Man with his teenage angst, and so forth. This made the characters "relatable" to the reader and also served to drive many a storyline.

I think this is something that was missing from the official Marvelscape cards (though I understand their desire for simplicity).

After delving into the custom world, I really like this concept and try to include "weaknesses" wherever possible for a number of reasons.

1. Thematically, it makes the game much more authentic. Marvel, in particular, is not Marvel without having heroes with "issues".

2. As I like to play scenarios involving master villains often against teams of heros, it helps me to balance the game. Just as I have tried to create some mega-villians for this purpose (see my 400+ point Doc Doom or Ultron), adding weaknesses can bring those hero values down and make setting up such type scenearios more possible.

3. It adds a lot of variety and fun to the game...a bit of a wildcard element if you will.

Some examples:

My Hercules does not benefit from teammate bonuses due to his arrogance.

Namor loses his order markers due to his unpredictable temper.

Wonder Man freezes up due to his death phobia.

Quicksilver can turn on his team, much as the comic version has often done.

Sometimes it doesn't work and you can't put too much on a card, but for those customizers who want maximum thematic accuracy, it is something that I really like.

[IAmBatman]

This is a really fun idea! I think as DC has increasingly matured, it's tried to go this route itself. Balancing strengths and weaknesses is what really makes both superheroes and playing superheroes a lot of fun, IMO.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

I completely agree with the whole weaknesses thing. That's why I think the C3G Superman is so cool. I also try to implement weakness in my customs as much as possible.

I think it's definately something I want to see implemented in the C3G villains to exploit the weaknesses of their arch enemies.

[Balantai]

I completely agree with your weakness ideas. In my Storm custom, if there are at least 4 figures adjacent to Storm, she may not roll more than one defense die. This was meant to represent her Claustrophobia. Weaknesses are a great way to make the characters stand out and be truely thematic.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by hi1hi1hi1hi1

I completely agree with the whole weaknesses thing. That's why I think the C3G Superman is so cool. I also try to implement weakness in my customs as much as possible.

I think it's definately something I want to see implemented in the C3G villains to exploit the weaknesses of their arch enemies.

For Superman, that's gonna mean anything that can bypass defense (Parasite is a possibility here) or subtract from it (I see any Kryptonite based powers doing the latter) or bypass the Man of Steel power (Its already built in for Zod to do so, and I think Kryptonite based powers probably will as well, which means Metallo and Lex Luthor at least). And I'm SURE if we ever do Doomsday he'll be designed to exploit Superman's weaknesses.
I've got plenty of ideas for Flash villains whose powers are enhanced by their opponents having a larger movement value, or who can bypass defense, or who can subtract from your movement.
I'm sure Sinestro will come with the ability to hurt Green Lanterns in special ways, and if we do a common squad of Manhunters, I bet they'll have the ability to drain the ring's battery power.
Special Attacks bypass Batman's Expert Counter Strike, so I see plenty of his villains coming with one of those. It'll also be necessary for most of them to be ranged to keep up with his Bat Line and Batarang Specials.
Count Vertigo is an anti-range and ant-special attack figure who hurts the usefulness of both Green Arrow and Black Canary.
And, on the flip side, Hawkgirl gets to subtract a defense die from the Undead when she attacks them making her a better match for her enemy in the Master Set, Solomon Grundy.
So, yeah, I think we're doing a pretty good job of this so far.

[A3n]

I think the point Badgermaniac was trying to make is that the character of the hero is someway flawed. So whilst, to me, the only thing that can hurt Superman is another Kryptonian (including Doomsday) or Kryptonite. Having Kryptonite in a non scenario game just doesn't make sense to me, so the battle between Superman & his opponent should still follow the same HS basic gameplay attack versus defense. But Superman as character should have a flaw. I think Superman's weakness more than anything is his morality. He will not take a life. So something like he cannot wound more than his opponents amount of wound markers -1. Better wording needed but basically Superman should never be able to completely destroy an opponent.

As a side point I do agree that you might have characters that have an ability to exploit a particular generic weakness, for instance Lex Luthor always wore a Kryptonite ring so that would be one of his special abilities exploiting a particular Kryptonian weakness that would reduce the defence & attack of any Kryptonian within his general area. But I wouldn't be trying to build that kind of weakness into the target character. And this is just my opinion it still won't stop me from liking what is done by the C3G I still think that the Superman card you guys did looks great I just thought there might have been a better way of doing the Man of Steel ability (not that I have that idea).

Cheers

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

Originally Posted by A3n

I think the point Badgermaniac was trying to make is that the character of the hero is someway flawed. So whilst, to me, the only thing that can hurt Superman is another Kryptonian (including Doomsday) or Kryptonite. Having Kryptonite in a non scenario game just doesn't make sense to me, so the battle between Superman & his opponent should still follow the same HS basic gameplay attack versus defense. But Superman as character should have a flaw. I think Superman's weakness more than anything is his morality. He will not take a life. So something like he cannot wound more than his opponents amount of wound markers -1. Better wording needed but basically Superman should never be able to completely destroy an opponent.

As a side point I do agree that you might have characters that have an ability to exploit a particular generic weakness, for instance Lex Luthor always wore a Kryptonite ring so that would be one of his special abilities exploiting a particular Kryptonian weakness that would reduce the defence & attack of any Kryptonian within his general area. But I wouldn't be trying to build that kind of weakness into the target character. And this is just my opinion it still won't stop me from liking what is done by the C3G I still think that the Superman card you guys did looks great I just thought there might have been a better way of doing the Man of Steel ability (not that I have that idea).

Cheers

I wanted to implement something like that in my version of Superman, but that makes him effectively useless against any squad. The only thing I could think of is limiting to cannot destroy Unique Heroes, but still, Superman can and does, beat people into unconsciousness which can also be symbolized by 0 life. That's the way I have to think about Superman destroying a figure because he was too limited being unable to kill. Also, how many other heroes have also sworn never to take a life? A lot.

[IAmBatman]

Batman's sworn to never take a life too. And yet ...
So I think pretty much with Superheroes, their victories represent Knockouts for the most part, not kills.
We didn't build a Kryptonite weakness into Superman's card for the C3G - the onus for that will be on cards like Lex Luthor's and Metallo's.
Man of Steel is one of Superman's strengths - though a weakness to other Kryptonians is built n.
I think the one thematic weakness for Superman that we really hit on for the C3G version is the Heroic Duty power, which acts as both a strength and a weakness.
Superman flying around to rescue everyone is pure flavor - and with his incredible defense, it can really help his entire team stick around longer.
But, if you play it right and the person controlling Superman isn't very very careful about where he places Superman, there's all sorts of opportunity for forcing Superman to disengage and take swipes. So, basically, it represents one of Superman's biggest weaknesses to me (other than Kryptonite, other Kryptonians, and magic), which is that he constantly puts himself in peril to save others.
Our Superman is also just as susceptible to mind control and auto destruct powers as everyone else, which helps keep him balanced.
So, I think the weaknesses are there for him in the C3G. If we gave him a power where he pulled his punches, I'd think that such a power would be appropriate on half the heroes out there as well. It's a Pandora's Box I don't think would be good to open. Maybe in scenarios.

[A3n]

Originally Posted by hi1hi1hi1hi1

The only thing I could think of is limiting to cannot destroy Unique Heroes, but still, Superman can and does, beat people into unconsciousness which can also be symbolized by 0 life.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

So I think pretty much with Superheroes, their victories represent Knockouts for the most part, not kills.

If it is viewed this way then Excellent, I agree.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Man of Steel is one of Superman's strengths - though a weakness to other Kryptonians is built n.

This was the only part of Man of Steel I didn't like, but I do see that it needs to be a weakness in the ability as we agree he doesn't have any extra power over other Kryptonians.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I think the one thematic weakness for Superman that we really hit on for the C3G version is the Heroic Duty power, which acts as both a strength and a weakness.
Superman flying around to rescue everyone is pure flavor - and with his incredible defense, it can really help his entire team stick around longer.

I did like this idea as his weakness, I just thought at the time that not taking a life would be his main weakness, but since we are saying 0 life doesn't necessaryly mean destroyed (as in the terminology of the rule book), I am happy with this ability because it is both a strength & a weakness.

Magic, I completely forgot about his weakness to magic! You guys in the C3G do have a hard job to consider all the variables & I do see how hard it is to try to be true to the characters without spelling out weaknesses like this one. Since it's not part of his card it would need to be represented on the attackers card but then that would mean listing all the species that either are imune or mega affected by the magic.

I don't want to hijack Badgermaniac's thread, but whilst you are here Iambatman, what is your groups opinion on the whole leaving engagement swipes, it doesn't quite seem completely balanced to me when it comes to super heroes. I mean sure Superman whilst leaving has his attention on his next move (saving Louis) but he is still the "man of steel". So whilst the Hulk would be up to giving Superman a parting swipe to remember I don't believe that one of the AE with his rifle would even bother Superman.

Cheers

[IAmBatman]

I think that occasionally you have to sacrifice theme for game balance. Since the designers put engagement rules in for balance to begin with, I'm cool with them.

[Balantai]

Originally Posted by A3n

I don't want to hijack Badgermaniac's thread, but whilst you are here Iambatman, what is your groups opinion on the whole leaving engagement swipes, it doesn't quite seem completely balanced to me when it comes to super heroes. I mean sure Superman whilst leaving has his attention on his next move (saving Louis) but he is still the "man of steel". So whilst the Hulk would be up to giving Superman a parting swipe to remember I don't believe that one of the AE with his rifle would even bother Superman.

Cheers

You have to tone down superheroes, otherwise the game becomes broken. If we were going to make Hulk thematic, he would be immune to all squads. This breaks the entire concept of Heroscape. The game is based on point values. 400 points spent on squads should be able to take down Hulk. This is not thematic but keeps balance in the game. It's the same concept when you play video games with superheroes and it has to be done this way. It's the only way to create a game that has any semblance of strategy.