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  #5017  
Old July 31st, 2022, 02:22 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
The entire theme that I see when I look at this figure, is a Native American who is also a Lawman. The only thing the Feral Swog did was make me aware that a Class change was possible. Parmenio did that long ago in Classic scape, so it's not new, it's just rarely used. Then this thread here made me aware that multi-classing was a possibility.

To do a thematic "mix of Tribesman and Lawman" still requires that I pick one of those for the synergies. What are they? Either a Native that decided to be a Lawman, and has lost all interest in working with other Native Americans... Or a Native Dressed as a Cowboy for no reason, since they have no synergy with other Cowboy themed figures. Why is a Native American dressing like a White man? I feel like the best way to do this figure justice is to either class swap, or multi-class. Anything else just feels like a waste to me.
I don't think that any synergy is needed for a design to get its story across. We have Common Blade Dancers that still feel like Varkaanans, Akumaken evoking the samurai, large constructs feeling like their matching elementals, and even thematically related factions with very little direct synergy links like ranged and melee orcs. Direct synergy can be interesting, but it's far from necessary to thematically link two ideas, and I rarely find it to be a compelling endpoint for a design on its own (and I would push back against the implication that it's a waste of a miniature if a design doesn't opt to net as many synergies as possible).

Quote:
The original card that I got from Pumpkin_King was just a Lawman, and did not try to class swap, or multi-class. I then asked myself, "why wouldn't he be willing to work with other Tribesmen?" If you were working on this custom, how would you answer that question?
Personally, I don't think that I would try to bridge the post-Clayton cowboys with Native Americans at all: there are some stones that I don't think are worth touching in the tone of this game. If I had to use this miniature, I would probably just make him a Tribesman and leave some slight nods to the cowboy faction without an extra power. His clothing doesn't need to be explained, and I feel like focusing the unit around a multi-class concept here is designing too heavily towards the mini.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vydar_XLIII View Post
So, for clarity, @Astroking112 , you take issue with 1) the abstract “Figure has two left-side stats of the same category, simultaneously.” And 2) this specific use of the above concept given that the last use of it was on the Feral Swog. Is that correct? If not, ignore the parts below that don’t apply.

1) This is a perfectly respectable position to take, and I have no criticism on this. Your line in the sand is at a slightly different place as mine, but that’s fine. A multiplicity of views on anything that pushes the boundaries of how it is acceptable to design units is a good thing to have.

2) I’ve got to push back on this in particular.

This problematic link you detail between the Feral Swog and Jim Whitecloud is, in my opinion, non-existent. The Swog’s army card has the words “Feral” and “Beast” on them. Jim’s army card has neither of those words on it. You would never make the argument that the Feral Swog could be mistaken for a Lycanthrope because it has mechanics that build off of the Werewolf Lord. You would never say that the Werewolf Lord commands the Sacred Band because the precedent for his power is Parmenio. Jim’s design borrows rough mechanics from the Swog and no theme whatsoever.
1) Yes. Pushing the class swapping concept even further to multiple classes at once pains my SQL memories and feels like a dangerous can of worms, but I fully expect everyone to have their lines at different points. And if having multiple classes at once passes, then it passes.

2) I think that this interpretation's half-right, but with the wrong emphasis; I have concerns with this specific usage thematically, but it's not because of the Feral Swog. My apologies for the confusion: the Swog was just a convenient example since it's recent and there aren't any other same-card class swaps yet if I remember correctly (which feels very different thematically to me than current examples like Parmenio and the Werewolf Lord).

So the Swog isn't the basis of these concerns, but rather an unfortunate mechanical similarity that highlights possible misperceptions. Regardless of what happens with the Swog, I think that this power and synergy nexus don't exist in a vacuum and need to be examined with their historical and cultural contexts in mind.
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  #5018  
Old August 1st, 2022, 02:59 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Hi everyone! I've created my first card that I would eventually like to submit to the SOV. I would love some feedback from everyone here who is smarter and more well-versed in Heroscape than I am.
The figure is the Elemental Wall #06 figure from Dnd War Drums. Here is an image for reference:


And here is the card:


For reference, Determined Bonding works with 5 units: Asterios, Gorillitroopers, Granite Guardians, Greater Ice Elemental, and Wildwood Sentinel

I am completely open to feedback and constructive criticism, I want this unit to be as great as it can be. I have found about 70 floating around, so there is lots of availability and I'd love to get it to tables in the future. Like I said, this is my first one for the SOV so lmk if anyone would like any additional info. Thanks!
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  #5019  
Old August 1st, 2022, 03:22 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Looks good to me! The only issue I see is that a Move of 2 means it will only be able to climb one level. You may want to add Gain Higher Ground from the Granite Guardians.

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  #5020  
Old August 1st, 2022, 03:56 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by quozl View Post
Looks good to me! The only issue I see is that a Move of 2 means it will only be able to climb one level. You may want to add Gain Higher Ground from the Granite Guardians.
That's a great idea! And fits with the theme.
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  #5021  
Old August 1st, 2022, 07:37 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I like the Diorite Defender so far. I definitely agree on adding Gain High Ground, but I'd be hesitant to give bonding and free height advantage to the Gorillitroopers; they're already difficult to destroy without height or anti-squaddie powers. Maybe change the Defender's bonding to target Dauntless Guards and Heroes?
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  #5022  
Old August 1st, 2022, 07:45 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

The bonding should probably say hero or squad instead of unit.
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  #5023  
Old August 1st, 2022, 08:20 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Trails View Post
I like the Diorite Defender so far. I definitely agree on adding Gain High Ground, but I'd be hesitant to give bonding and free height advantage to the Gorillitroopers; they're already difficult to destroy without height or anti-squaddie powers. Maybe change the Defender's bonding to target Dauntless Guards and Heroes?
I don't know, the gorillitroopers have to stay next to the very slow Defender for the bonus. The bonding is nice but situationally they will not have much board control. To be fair I have not played with them, but I don't think this will boost them too much.
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  #5024  
Old August 1st, 2022, 08:21 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by MegaSilver View Post
The bonding should probably say hero or squad instead of unit.
The wording does seem weird, but it is only 5 units total. Personally I like the options available with this but it seems it might be best to narrow it down. I'll definitely consider it for v3.
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  #5025  
Old August 1st, 2022, 08:54 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I think he means “hero or squad”, not choose one or the other.
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  #5026  
Old August 1st, 2022, 11:43 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
I think he means “hero or squad”, not choose one or the other.
Correct. I was typing from phone so I wasn't clear enough.

I think for Rock Pillars, considering this guy is unique, I think it would be neat if he started with X rock tiles on his card, and in a similar fashion to Mika Connor, places them on the battlefield. Could be some mechanic to remove them and place them.


As to numbers, I'm not 70 is enough? I'm not 100% what necessary numbers are needed nowadays.
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  #5027  
Old August 2nd, 2022, 07:11 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by MegaSilver View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
I think he means “hero or squad”, not choose one or the other.
Correct. I was typing from phone so I wasn't clear enough.

I think for Rock Pillars, considering this guy is unique, I think it would be neat if he started with X rock tiles on his card, and in a similar fashion to Mika Connor, places them on the battlefield. Could be some mechanic to remove them and place them.


As to numbers, I'm not 70 is enough? I'm not 100% what necessary numbers are needed nowadays.
Oh ok gotcha. Yes I will change that, that wording seems much better. The idea of a pillar mechanic is cool but I feel like that might get pretty confusing. I was going for a more simplistic Re-Tak-Shi vibe.
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  #5028  
Old August 2nd, 2022, 11:30 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

A Hero bonding with a Squad isn't exactly prohibited, but we've completely avoided doing so. That's dangerous territory. The list of units doesn't cause any trouble, but we've avoided reverse-bonding for a reason.

There is somewhat of an issue with bonding with the Wildwood Sentinel in that the bonding chains to the Wildwood Runner. And, problematically, both the Runner and the Diorite Defender take a turn after the Sentinel. So one will be waiting "in the queue" while the other is taking a turn, and I'm not a fan of that. Again, I don't think it's actually problematic, but pushing into dangerous territory. Actually, the Granite Guardian's Gain High Ground is also somewhat troublesome, as it is also an after-turn power that will take place at the same point as the Diorite Defender.

Rock Pillars is cool, and I really appreciate an attempt to make a Move 2 figure work (though it probably needs something like Ascend to make it work). I agree that such a slow figure really does need something that gives it more for an order marker, but Determined Bonding is problematic for multiple reasons.
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