The Book of Cammy

[Skinderella]

Sounds good to me

[Alexandros]

Sorry for the delay here. I botched my first attempt at my second test by fundamentally misunderstanding how a unit worked, and didn't get to retest until this evening. Please feel free to contact me if this test needs any further clarification. I edited the original test post but have also quoted it here for convenience.

Originally Posted by Alexandros

(snipped for brevity)

Spoiler Alert!

[Soundwarp SG-1]

Looks like you have a 100 point advantage in the first test against the Spiders?

Which just proves what I've been saying about Bison really.

[LordVenoc]

Originally Posted by Skinderella

AXLE SPIN KNUCKLE
When Cammy rolls defense dice against an enemy figure, if you roll two or more shields, she instead takes no damage and you may immediately move her up to 2 spaces. If she ends this move adjacent to the attacking figure, that figure receives 1 wound.

While I apologize for missing it till now, I'm going to be a Nay on this power here. While the number of dice is different from the Nightwing comparison, we have 2 more comparable powers.

Genius Escape and Rock Wall Defense

This is straight up better than both of them. For starters, she doesn't require rolling 2 skulls like Genius Escape. Probability-wise, you'd start to get comparable if you switched the autowound to a die roll. But still leaves the first roll easier as now she has a pool of 5 die to work with vs essentially 3 that Genius Escape folks are working with to accomplish the same effect.

Rock Wall Defense hits back automatically but allow for movement, is limited to melee, and requires 4 shields.

Also, both of them only work on normal attacks. We are very selective about who gets counters on Special Attacks. Not seeing a reason why Cammy should be one of them, even with Street Fighter characters heavily preferring specials. If anything that more justifies it as she's a 140 pointer in a faction that leans specials over the autowounds that are borderline required here.

Statistically speaking, you'd actually depower her by simply making the power:

AXLE SPIN KNUCKLE
When Cammy rolls defense dice against an enemy figure, you may instead roll one die. If you roll a skull, she instead takes no damage and you may immediately move her up to 2 spaces. If she ends this move adjacent to the attacking figure, that figure receives 1 wound.

Which hopefully captures what I'm getting at here more succinctly.

[MrNobody]

Originally Posted by LordVenoc

While I apologize for missing it till now, I'm going to be a Nay on this power here. While the number of dice is different from the Nightwing comparison, we have 2 more comparable powers.

Genius Escape and Rock Wall Defense

This is straight up better than both of them. For starters, she doesn't require rolling 2 skulls like Genius Escape. Probability-wise, you'd start to get comparable if you switched the autowound to a die roll. But still leaves the first roll easier as now she has a pool of 5 die to work with vs essentially 3 that Genius Escape folks are working with to accomplish the same effect.

Rock Wall Defense hits back automatically but allow for movement, is limited to melee, and requires 4 shields.

Also, both of them only work on normal attacks. We are very selective about who gets counters on Special Attacks. Not seeing a reason why Cammy should be one of them, even with Street Fighter characters heavily preferring specials. If anything that more justifies it as she's a 140 pointer in a faction that leans specials over the autowounds that are borderline required here.

Statistically speaking, you'd actually depower her by simply making the power:

Which hopefully captures what I'm getting at here more succinctly.

It’s pretty similar to Puck’s Cartwheel Defense, which isn’t that overpowering.

[LordVenoc]

Its the free automatic wound attached to it that is the issue. I have no issue whatsoever if we cut the automatic wound on it.

[Ericth74]

Originally Posted by LordVenoc

Its the free automatic wound attached to it that is the issue. I have no issue whatsoever if we cut the automatic wound on it.

If it was switched from an auto wound to a roll for an unblockable, would that work?

[tcglkn]

So you voted Yea for public testing but are now saying the design is a Nay to you after 4 testers have played it? The power is different from other powers, are we not allowed to create stronger versions of previous powers?

[LordVenoc]

Originally Posted by Ericth74

If it was switched from an auto wound to a roll for an unblockable, would that work?

I may have cost related concerns, but that would help alleviate concerns.

Originally Posted by tcglkn

So you voted Yea for public testing but are now saying the design is a Nay to you after 4 testers have played it? The power is different from other powers, are we not allowed to create stronger versions of previous powers?

Things get missed at times. Opinions changed. Example:

Originally Posted by tcglkn

Nightwing isn't consider particularly fun to play against. 1 Shield Defense is very frustrating to fight through and I don't think we should make a better version of it here that comes with an unblockable.

That was you yesterday, and you yourself ran the initial.

We are allowed to make new powers. This is a distinct upgrade in a way I have discomfort with, predominantly a counter strike against special attacks which we rarely allow.

To quote one of the testers:

Originally Posted by Ericth74

THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: 140 seems good. Axle Spin Knuckle is pretty strong though. If others have a lot of success with it, her cost may need to go up or the power tuned down.

Next tester:

Alexandros Game 1

Spoiler Alert!

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Team Cammy - Cammy 1, Bison 1, Star Lord (no wounds), Daredevil (no wounds)

Very large win featuring at least 1 unit doing nothing, and 1 unit who is notorious for being not good. Even with the point difference of teams, you can ignore Daredevil's presence and its still a big win.

Alexandros Game 2

Spoiler Alert!

Another large win, featuring 6 autowounds form the defensive power.

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Team Cammy: No wounds on Fate or Raza.

Last tests look relatively more even. She was up against a defense reducer in one of them, so that definitely mitigates powers some.


So I guess hard Nay would be unfair to say. But I absolutely have concerns about the potential oppressiveness of it and putting a special attack counterstrike capable figure out there at such a low cost.

[IAmBatman]

Seems like an issue worth pausing over and talking out for sure. I'm sure Skinderella would agree.

[LordVenoc]

Yes. I don't think Skinderella has done anything wrong or intentionally going too big or anything. Nay language there from me was probably ultimately more about conveying feel of importance of the point as at times people can gloss over concerns if they are liking how it plays. Not accusing Skinderella of that, just wanted to be on it when I caught it as it is, ultimately, my bad for not catching/processing it sooner on my earlier looks.

[tcglkn]

Originally Posted by LordVenoc

Opinions changed. Example:

That was you yesterday, and you yourself ran the initial.

We are allowed to make new powers. This is a distinct upgrade in a way I have discomfort with, predominantly a counter strike against special attacks which we rarely allow.

That comment was in response to these:

Originally Posted by Skinderella

Unless we made it something like this, I don't think it'd be stronger than Harley's / Nightwing's since she needs two shields right now, and dropping her defense to 4 makes that even harder. It's not that reliable to begin with, certainly not as reliable as Harley's.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

What do @tcglkn and @Ericth74 think of potential tweaks here? If she's feeling fun as-is, I'd lean towards seeing how the last set of tests go and tweaking price up if necessary, but leaving mechanics alone.

I have no issue with the current version of the power. If anything I think limiting this to working against normal attacks only is a fine tweak at this point but anything more would be too much.